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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:19 PM   #406
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
To be truthful, it is really sad to see so many blind Graf fans.
Well,I was born in Yugoslavia and grown up being a fan of Monica Seles as we all were.

But when I have grown up a bit,it didn't prevent me from being more objectively realistic then subjectively blind just because I feel something extra for her and for some reason(patriotism).

Even though I still love Monica as a player that didn't prevent me from seeing and recognizing the facts from the tennis court as I find it correct to do so.

Even Monica nowadays feels the same and has told it many times to reporters and she was praised here for that sentence about Graf from Tennis-Revue magazine,for being able to be gracious and truthful at the same time.And only an independent mind can do that,unlike many others who just stick to their imaginative world.

Being blind is often related to someone who is sticking his head into sand and is not willing or just not being able to see what is going on in reality!So,I am not blind
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #407
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post

The motive of the stabber was to stop Graf's main rival and to advance Graf
I understand your point,but you are mixing here apples with oranges.You want to punish Graf and to take something out of her just because her fans intentions?

If a woman you don't know has a crush on you and hurts your wife just because she thinks it would be easier for her to be with you,would it be fair to charge you by saying that you are guilty for letting her bond,even though you don't know?And the official Court to prevent you from being able to marry again just because you are dangerous for your partners,even if those intentions and actions were not yours?
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #408
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well,I was born in Yugoslavia and grown up being a fan of Monica Seles as we all were.

But when I have grown up a bit,it didn't prevent me from being more objectively realistic then subjectively blind just because I feel something extra for her and for some reason(patriotism).

Even though I still love Monica as a player that didn't prevent me from seeing and recognizing the facts from the tennis court as I find it correct to do so.

Even Monica nowadays feels the same and has told it many times to reporters and she was praised here for that sentence about Graf from Tennis-Revue magazine,for being able to be gracious and truthful at the same time.And only an independent mind can do that,unlike many others who just stick to their imaginative world.

Being blind is often related to someone who is sticking his head into sand and is not willing or just not being able to see what is going on in reality!So,I am not blind
Correct me if I'm wrong. When you talk about Monica, are you saying Monica accepts the fact that she could have contributed more herself after the Parche incident, and it can't all be blamed on Parche and Graf?
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:39 PM   #409
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Adi1987 View Post
Graf fans are the most hypocritical bunch of all the tennis fans.


First they try to downplay the stabbing incident ( more like attempted murder) by stating that, we have to accept the fact that Steffi ended up with 22 majors and that is futile and pointless to speculate , "what might have been."

They then do the classical 180, and state that Margaret Court's 24 majors should not be given it's due because of "depleted fields".

Basically they want to have one's cake and eat it too, by FORCING PEOPLE TO ACCEPT THE LEGITIMACY OF HER SLAMS AND AT THE SAME TIME DICREDITING HER CONTENDER'S ACHIEVEMENTS.
Aditya,nobody is forcing anyone to accept anything if one doesn't want to,that's your choice,but also nobody can deny something that is proven.

One thing is to like something or not and the other is to admit it!

One may or may not like the fact that Graf is recognized as the greatest player,but the ones who don't like can just don't like it,as they can't deny something that is universally proven,as this.

And as I said,nobody denies Court's GS titles,but just says that they are not comparable as they were not played under same conditions.You just can't compare winning a 32 players draw Slam in which you have a first round bye with 128 players draw Slam where you have to win all 7 matches with no bye in it.

So,nobody takes anything away,just say that is not comparable!And that's why Court,even though a great player has often been overlooked.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:46 PM   #410
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Anabelcroft View Post
Aditya,nobody is forcing anyone to accept anything if one doesn't want to,that's your choice,but also nobody can deny something that is proven.

One thing is to like something or not and the other is to admit it!

One may or may not like the fact that Graf is recognized as the greatest player,but the ones who don't like can just don't like it,as they can't deny something that is universally proven,as this.

And as I said,nobody denies Court's GS titles,but just says that they are not comparable as they were not played under same conditions.You just can't compare winning a 32 players draw Slam in which you have a first round bye with 128 players draw Slam where you have to win all 7 matches with no bye in it.

So,nobody takes anything away,just say that is not comparable!And that's why Court,even though a great player has often been overlooked.
I don't think it's Graf fans that argue Court. I think it's fans that don't like, respect or know Court that argue against her, than Graf haters say it's Steffi fans doing it.

I think most tennis fans say that about Court.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:48 PM   #411
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong. When you talk about Monica, are you saying Monica accepts the fact that she could have contributed more herself after the Parche incident, and it can't all be blamed on Parche and Graf?
I have read her biography which was on sell here in Serbian stores and the ones who had the chance to read it know that she explained exactly that.

She did not blame Graf in any sentence,she blamed herself for being able to like doing things that were not tennis connected at that time.

She enjoyed watching movies while eating pop-corns,junk food and doing everything that was forbidden to her!

Today,as we see her she looks fit and is able to get over all those periods and talk freely about them without being either bitter or subjective!
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #412
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I have read her biography which was on sell here in Serbian stores and the ones who had the chance to read it know that she explained exactly that.

She did not blame Graf in any sentence,she blamed herself for being able to like doing things that were not tennis connected at that time.

She enjoyed watching movies while eating pop-corns,junk food and doing everything that was forbidden to her!

Today,as we see her she looks fit and is able to get over all those periods and talk freely about them without being either bitter or subjective!
OH. OK.

But you know it's taboo to mention Monica's response--in light of what happened, cause many want to blame it strictly on Parche and label Graf the beneficiary (despite the fact that Seles was healthy and security was increased). Those were the facts.

Some people think your being cold, when you say that (after repeated cries by Seles fans and the multitude of woulda, coulda, shoulda's). However, it's not always as clear cut at they want it to be. And that's being/saying it politely.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 04:06 PM   #413
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post

But you know it's taboo to mention Monica's response
Well,that's why she wrote a book,as kind of an response and to tell people what was going on in her head on and off the court.

As I said,fortunately,today she looks amazing and is not afraid to be honest about everything as for her tennis is only a past,like for Graf also.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 04:12 PM   #414
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Well,that's why she wrote a book,as kind of an response and to tell people what was going on in her head on and off the court.

As I said,fortunately,today she looks amazing and is not afraid to be honest about everything as for her tennis is only a past,like for Graf also.
Based off of what we see here, I don't think most posters stanning for Seles and hating on Graf have ever read or cared about what Seles wrote and why.

I don't think it makes any difference to them.

Some folks just want to push an agenda, instead of ultimately respecting both players.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #415
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Based off of what we see here, I don't think most posters stanning for Seles and hating on Graf have ever read or cared about what Seles wrote and why.

I don't think it makes any difference to them.
That's because they are not really interested in a player as a person,but interested only in what he/she represents to them on the tennis court,which makes it a bit selfish.

For us in Serbia Monica is still a huge star,like Novak Djokovic is...but people don't fool themselves by saying that Djokovic is greater then Federer just because Novak is closer to our hearts,if you understand what I mean.

Last edited by Marc23 : Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #416
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
That's because they are not really interested in a player as a person,but interested only in what he/she represents to them on the tennis court,which makes it a bit selfish.

For us in Serbia Monica is still a huge star,like Novak Djokovic is...but people don't fool themselves by saying that Djokovic is greater then Federer just because he is closer to our hearts,if you understand what I mean.
Yes, I understand what you mean.

If I understand you correctly, basically what you're saying is 'Steffi was the better player (whether it was their respective games, resiliency, longevity, records, etc.), and you don't let Monica's early start, H2H etc., define her ultimate place in tennis history'.

And I agree with you, that many here stanning for Monica, couldn't care less about what she says and her feelings. Like you indicated, they more care, WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE--to foster any hatred or questions they have for or about Graf.

It was a very unfortunate incident. Tragic. However, there was a time after. And whether Monica was mentally incapable of playing or not, because of it (you may know this more than I), how do we judge her results after, if we knew she was physically capable of playing 1 week after?

I think this is where the "Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda's" make rational or Graf supporters ask questions or doubt these claims (kind what you were saying earlier), though we all feel for Monica's situation, but nonetheless makes us look bad with these rabid supporters.

Last edited by Excelscior : Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 04:37 PM   #417
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post

If I understand you correctly, basically what you're saying is 'Steffi was the better player (whether it was their respective games, resiliency, longevity, records, etc.), and you don't let Monica's early start, H2H etc., define her ultimate place in tennis history'.
Well,I don't want to be the single judge and tell that she is better but as you said-everything indicates to that,which again doesn't mean that I don't love Monica as we are connected with the special bond-I've grown up watching and cheering for her,as well as both being from the same country-But it just doesn't have to do anything with tennis game who I or you love more or less and why.

Reality is reality and only results show who is where in tennis,not our subjective perspective of one's game,peak,assets,personality etc.

Last edited by Marc23 : Oct 8th, 2012 at 04:43 PM.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 04:40 PM   #418
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well,I don't want to be the single judge and tell that she is better but everything indicates to that,which again doesn't mean that I don't love Monica as we are connected with the special bond,both being from the same country-But it just doesn't have to do anything with tennis game who I or you love more or less.Reality is reality and only results show who is where in tennis.

Fair enough. And I certainly didn't want to place you in that position of making an evaluation. And I agree with you that results are results. And I certainly appreciate your love and bond for Monica, while respecting her great achievements.

She's appears to have matured into a great lady/Champion.
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #419
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
And I agree with you that results are results. And I certainly appreciate your love and bond for Monica, while respecting her great achievements.
Yes,and based on them(results) only we can say who is where in tennis!

Based on other things we can say who we love more and why,but that doesn't have anything to do with upgrading someone just because we love him/her...as we see here!

Graf is undisputedly on top of the list,as the reality check said,just like Federer is in the mens side and I can't deny that just because I like Djokovic more,even though they battle for the number 1 spot and I cheer for him
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Old Oct 8th, 2012, 11:21 PM   #420
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

You know, you all can sit around here and tell each other the BS. The fact of the matter is the MOTIVE of the STABBER was to advance Graf. You all saying you all know more than the person that stabbed Seles. You are saying the stabber is lying. If you are not, and you are agreeing that it did advance Graf, you cannot say or measure to what degree. Therefore, and no fault of her own, everything after that is looked at with a judicous eye. As sinster as the stabbing was, I wouldn't put it past Graf's father to concoct something like this. Oh, yeah..

Then we have the part of the stabber dam near being let scott free!! In a GERMAN COURT!!

Please, no response, I can't stand it anymore.. I am ready to go out and find a roof and screeeeeeeemmmmm!!
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