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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #301
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
That's the thing...you guys belittle the stabbing, but to me the worst part of it: Battles should be fought on the tennis court. Let Graf vs Seles do their thing...no, Parche had to go and ruin everything. Another German looney changing history, in this case tennis history.
Thank You for a reasonably polite response Bandabou.

I don't think we "belittle" the stabbing. I just think we take it for what it is/was, and move on. I think a lot of people get caught up with the emotion and Gunther Parche's intentions, etc. But you have to move forward, cause time has.

I think they're some of us who say "was she hurt, could she play; okay", and move on?

It's nothing personal or insensitive. Besides the nature of her mild physical injuries, how is this any different than what other players experience?

Yes, she was accosted by a deranged German Fool, and it very likely affected the course of tennis history (by some observers). But you can make the other argument, "what about other players that we know and don't know about that suffered their own physical and psychological injuries, and over come them"?

Most importantly, why did Seles let this fool (Parch) win, if she was physically able to play, and so many of her stans think she could of been one of the greatest???

No one blames Monica. But at the same time, other players may have handled it differently? And who's to say there wouldn't have been something else in Monica's life (besides boredom, her weight, physical conditioning, a better Steffi, etc.) that slowed her down?

Yes, Parche was a fool. And we are lucky that he was dumb enough he didn't seriously injure Monica. Some how we never look at it that way. We only mourn for the psychological roadblock, it more than likely created for Seles in the future.

Other players, may have taken that blessing (not being seriously injured, and able to play), and ran with it.

Last edited by Excelscior : Sep 27th, 2012 at 03:57 PM.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #302
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post


No one blames Monica. But at the same time, others would have maybe handled it differently. Who's to say there wouldn't have been something else in Monica's life (besides boredom, her weight, physical conditioning, etc.) that slowed her down?
If it was something else that got to Monica, I wouldn't have anything to say. Even if she was in a car accident, fell down the stairs, or even go injured playing to hard, like tearing a muscle. All those things are in the game.

However, what happened to Monica, and the boost it gave Graf is unprecedented. The sole purpose of the stabber was to stop Seles from beating Graf. Let me say that again, the sole purpose of the stabber was to stop Seles and advance Graf. That is what happened. You have to take the stabber's motive into account. When that happens, anything about Graf's record after the stabbed, is not just questionable, it is tainted.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #303
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
If it was something else that got to Monica, I wouldn't have anything to say. Even if she was in a car accident, fell down the stairs, or even go injured playing to hard, like tearing a muscle. All those things are in the game.

However, what happened to Monica, and the boost it gave Graf is unprecedented. The sole purpose of the stabber was to stop Seles from beating Graf. Let me say that again, the sole purpose of the stabber was to stop Seles and advance Graf. That is what happened. You have to take the stabber's motive into account. When that happens, anything about Graf's record after the stabbed, is not just questionable, it is tainted.
OK, I'm glad you said that. Cause that's the crux of the issue win man Seles-Stans ("the advantage that Parche gave her". OK.

One of the problems is (and I'm not going to do it/rehash it here), there are many people who would tell you that Parche was wrong, and that Graf wasn't even losing to Seles like that at the time, and was losing to a bunch of pigeons she never lost to in the past. Lucky he didn't go after Sanchez Vicario, Novotna and Sabitini at the time. In addition you're taking the rantings of a mad man and trying to make logic and be upset with it?

Tne other point is; he wasn't successful. Monica was barely injured. Think about that? The rest was up to Seles. And if she chose not to rededicate herself to be as good as she was, then she let him win. Not vice versa. It may sound terrible, and it's not her fault.

If he would of maimed her; yes (then he would have been successful). But he didn't.

Let me ask you a question; If that was Serena Williams, Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graf or Billy Jean King, how much you think that incident would of slowed them down, if at all? Remember, someone had already given us the Paul Pierce example.

Be honest!? That's not to say that Seles wasn't affected, or it's her fault, etc.. Of course not. It just means, that it's a two way street. And that's why some people feel that Seles wouldn't have continued playing to that level (besides the Steffi Slump folks), and her post stabbing tennis was more indicative of how she was going to play anyway. She had a short window.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #304
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
OK, I'm glad you said that. Cause that's the crux of the issue win man Seles-Stans ("the advantage that Parche gave her". OK.
(snipped for space)

You have a point, however, it doesn't stand up to the fact that she was injured for the sole purpose of advancing Graf. How much she was injured doesn't come into play. The point is she was injured on purpose to advance another player.

The argument of how much she was injured, or could have kept playing is a non issue. If this was a court of law, that part would be thrown out. Even if the guy just stomped her on her feet, the main issue is, it was done to advance Graf. I will admit this, IT WAS NOT FAIR TO GRAF. Not even a little bit.

Graf wasn't a party to the stabbing and didn't ask for or wanted her opponents stopped in this manner. To tell the truth, the stabber did more harm to Graf than what was done to Seles. The stabber put the mark on Graf that will always be there. It would have been a good time for tennis and tennis history for those duels to take place between Seles and Graf. Tennis fans and history was robbed, and to make matters worse, the stabber's country, which also is Graf's country, gave the stabber a slap on the wrist. All bad for tennis history and it is all documented in tennis history..

Graf and Seles got a real bad break on this.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 05:14 PM   #305
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
(snipped for space)

You have a point, however, it doesn't stand up to the fact that she was injured for the sole purpose of advancing Graf. How much she was injured doesn't come into play. The point is she was injured on purpose to advance another player.

The argument of how much she was injured, or could have kept playing is a non issue. If this was a court of law, that part would be thrown out. Even if the guy just stomped her on her feet, the main issue is, it was done to advance Graf. I will admit this, IT WAS NOT FAIR TO GRAF. Not even a little bit.

Graf wasn't a party to the stabbing and didn't ask for or wanted her opponents stopped in this manner. To tell the truth, the stabber did more harm to Graf than what was done to Seles. The stabber put the mark on Graf that will always be there. It would have been a good time for tennis and tennis history for those duels to take place between Seles and Graf. Tennis fans and history was robbed, and to make matters worse, the stabber's country, which also is Graf's country, gave the stabber a slap on the wrist. All bad for tennis history and it is all documented in tennis history..

Graf and Seles got a real bad break on this.
I see you're hung up on Parche's intentions. I get that. But he was unsuccessful, cause he didn't injure Seles. My god, the guy tried to harm her with a butter knife?

As far as the level of injury and the courts, that's why (since you went there) we have civil and criminal judgments. In addition criminal court, includes fines, misdemeanors and different levels of punishment. So even if I intend to harm you, and the weapon I use and injury I inflict were minimal, I'll get a slap on the wrist. Now on the other hand, if I didn't intend to purposefully harm you at all, and I did seriously, I could get a big fine or even jail time (for negligence). Remember that?

What happened with Parche was exactly what we saw (a deranged fool with a butter knife, scraping a great tennis player for his delusional reasons). Crazy!

Yes, Gunther Parche created a mess. Now on the other hand, Monica could have created an even greater story by coming back sooner and picking up where she left off. So yeah, you're right. To some of us history was cheated for both of them. And even Monica (if you believe Anabelcroft's quotes), has tried to set the record and history straight, by stating Parche wasn't the changer of history the way some fans make him out to be. Yes, history was cheated. No argument there.

However, if I was a big Seles fan (knowing me), I would also say or admit-even to myself, that Monica just didn't want to commit herself anymore to the highest levels-while it was quite possible. But what can you say?

And that was the shame of the whole damn thing.

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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #306
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Excelscior, one very important that you missed and I didn't mention. That is the MENTAL HARM that was done. We are both not doctors, and cannot rate the seriousness of the stab. However, we can in an unprofessional way, because are not professionals, at least I am not, imagine the mental harm that was done to Seles. The mental part of a player's tennis game is just as important as the physical game, if not more. Seles was not only physically harmed, she was mentally harmed as well.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #307
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
Excelscior, one very important that you missed and I didn't mention. That is the MENTAL HARM that was done. We are both not doctors, and cannot rate the seriousness of the stab. However, we can in an unprofessional way, because are not professionals, at least I am not, imagine the mental harm that was done to Seles. The mental part of a player's tennis game is just as important as the physical game, if not more. Seles was not only physically harmed, she was mentally harmed as well.
Agreed.

And that's why we can't overtly speculate or comment (and expect to be right or ever certain).

There could be 50 different reasons why Monica could have not performed the way she did after the Parche incident, that may or may not had to do anything with him.

On the other hand, it could have very well been the reason. And that's a personal make up, regarding how each person deals with and comes back from that type of adversity.

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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #308
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Thank You for a reasonably polite response Bandabou.

I don't think we "belittle" the stabbing. I just think we take it for what it is/was, and move on. I think a lot of people get caught up with the emotion and Gunther Parche's intentions, etc. But you have to move forward, cause time has.

I think they're some of us who say "was she hurt, could she play; okay", and move on?

It's nothing personal or insensitive. Besides the nature of her mild physical injuries, how is this any different than what other players experience?

Yes, she was accosted by a deranged German Fool, and it very likely affected the course of tennis history (by some observers). But you can make the other argument, "what about other players that we know and don't know about that suffered their own physical and psychological injuries, and over come them"?

Most importantly, why did Seles let this fool (Parch) win, if she was physically able to play, and so many of her stans think she could of been one of the greatest???

No one blames Monica. But at the same time, other players may have handled it differently? And who's to say there wouldn't have been something else in Monica's life (besides boredom, her weight, physical conditioning, a better Steffi, etc.) that slowed her down?

Yes, Parche was a fool. And we are lucky that he was dumb enough he didn't seriously injure Monica. Some how we never look at it that way. We only mourn for the psychological roadblock, it more than likely created for Seles in the future.

Other players, may have taken that blessing (not being seriously injured, and able to play), and ran with it.
You keep blah blahing about: it wasn't a big deal, worst things happened to people in life, yada yada...Graf couldn't even deal with a divorce..something that occurs even more frequently than a player getting stabbed on the tennis court.

Yet that somehow is a valid excuse for her not being as successful in 91-93 period, but now you saying Seles is a coward, Seles this, Seles that?! You're a joke, really.

Anyways, no ammount of discussion is gonna change anything anyways. Steffi got her 22 majors, well deserved..and Seles will have to learn with the what if question. And please stop acting like you care ONE iota...peace.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:26 PM   #309
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Agreed.

And that's why we can't overtly speculate or comment (and expect to be right or ever certain).

There could be 50 different reasons why Monica could have not performed the way she did after the Parche incident, that may or may not had to do anything with him.

On the other hand, it could have very well been the reason. And that's a personal make up, regarding how each person deals with and comes back from that type of adversity.
No there's just one, she was traumatized. She has said so herself.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #310
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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You keep blah blahing about: it wasn't a big deal, worst things happened to people in life, yada yada...Graf couldn't even deal with a divorce..something that occurs even more frequently than a player getting stabbed on the tennis court.

Yet that somehow is a valid excuse for her not being as successful in 91-93 period, but now you saying Seles is a coward, Seles this, Seles that?! You're a joke, really.

Anyways, no ammount of discussion is gonna change anything anyways. Steffi got her 22 majors, well deserved..and Seles will have to learn with the what if question. And please stop acting like you care ONE iota...peace.
I never said it wasn't a big deal. It was. Absolutely. It was tragic to be quite honest.

What I was talking about, was what you do with it after it. Cause at this point, Seles fans and Graf haters can always say 50 different things about how great Seles was and how history was changed. And they certainly have a right to. But many times it gets ridiculous.

I have a question for you though? Do you think if what happened to Seles, happened to Serena, she would have responded the same? How about Navratilova and Bily Jean King? I'm going to exclude Graf for obvious reasons.

I know you don't want to answer that. But please do?

So yes, you can say the Stabbing messed up Seles. OK. But you can't hang on to it. Cause I don't think it would have messed up every player under the same situation. And that's why you can't speak about it in superlatives.

If I had said to you "well this player could have been the greatest, if they didn't get hit by a car", you'd say "OK, that's unfortunate, and moved on"

At least Seles could play.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #311
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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No there's just one, she was traumatized. She has said so herself.
Mmmmh. That's interesting.

When Graf says she was traumatized by her family situation (and it affected her play), Seles-tards refuse to even acknowledge or believe it.

That's Ironic.

This is not arguing "who had it worse". But you're going by Seles words, by not Graf's.

Okay.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #312
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
I never said it wasn't a big deal. It was. Absolutely. It was tragic.

What I was talking about, was what you do with it after it. Cause at this point, Seles fans and Graf haters can always say 50 different things about how great Seles was and how history was changed. And they certainly have a right to. But many times it gets ridiculous.

I have a question for you though? Do you think if what happened to Seles, happened to Serena, she would have responded the same? How about Navratilova and Bily Jean King? I'm going to exclude Graf for obvious reasons.

I know you don't want to answer that. But please do?

So yes, you can say the Stabbing messed up Seles. OK. But you can't hang on to it. Cause I don't think it would have messed up every player under the same situation. And that's why you can't speak about it in superlatives.

If I had said to you "well this player could have been the greatest, if they didn't get hit by a car", you'd say "OK, that's unfortunate, and moved on"

At least Seles could play.
The stabbing messed SELES..what does it matter what other people felt or didn't feel?! SELES is the one people wonder about...Steffi, we already saw what she went on to achieve, so there's no mystery. You Graftards seem to think that wondering about Seles, diminishes Graf?!

and it's easy to say: such and such wouldn't have been messed up by it. Graf was messed by a mere divorce, no?!

And nobody said anything about Monica being the greatest ever. I don't think Seles could've have kept it up..eventually she would have maxed out at something like 12/13 majors?! THAT'S the thing people wonder about.

So stop making this a Graf-thing.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:55 PM   #313
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Mmmmh. That's interesting.

When Graf says she was traumatized by her family situation (and it affected her play), Seles-tards refuse to even acknowledge or believe it.

That's Ironic.

This is not arguing "who had it worse". But you're going by Seles words, by not Graf's.

Okay.
Is that it, Cali?! Really?! You want to compare traumas and say with a straight face that Graf had it worse?! I mean seriously?!

How old was Steffi?! 22 or something, so it ain't like she didn't have a life of her own..or that she would've to chose to either stay at mommy or daddy. I mean, PLEASE..let's get real.

And yet you sit here and talk about how she'd have dealt with the stabbing no roblem. sure.
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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:59 PM   #314
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
The stabbing messed SELES..what does it matter what other people felt or didn't feel?! SELES is the one people wonder about...Steffi, we already saw what she went on to achieve, so there's no mystery. You Graftards seem to think that wondering about Seles, diminishes Graf?!

and it's easy to say: such and such wouldn't have been messed up by it. Graf was messed by a mere divorce, no?!

And nobody said anything about Monica being the greatest ever. I don't think Seles could've have kept it up..eventually she would have maxed out at something like 12/13 majors?! THAT'S the thing people wonder about.

So stop making this a Graf-thing.
OK (and nicely written).

But you still didn't answer my Serena question?

And to be quite honest, maybe you and other more rational tennis fans may have felt Seles would have maxed out at 11-13 majors. But what you don't realize is, there are some of her more vigilant fans, that feel she could have won as much majors or been as good as Serena, Chrisse, Martina, Court and Graf.

That's what I think you don't realize. And by the way, this response was originally only the top 2 lines ("OK, nicely written. But you still didn't answer my Serena question"). I just added the next few. Lol

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Old Sep 27th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #315
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Seles fans and Graf haters can always say 50 different things about how great Seles was and how history was changed. .
Wrong! You have NOT heard me say or tout how great Seles was. You have heard me say how Graf's record is tainted because Seles was stabbed for the sole reason of advancing Graf. The only thing you heard me say was great is how the old man can sling a motorcycle into a corner at breakneck speeds and make it look easy!!!
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