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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 04:16 AM   #151
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Nobody was dominating the early 80s so it doesnt really matter if the competition was better then, as no GOAT put up their all time best record, or a better record than Serena in 2002-2003 those years. I dont agree at all 1980 and 1981, though good competitively, was stronger than the early 2000s regardless. Navratilova was in a slump and playing way worse than 77-79 and 82-89, Evert was strong, Austin was playing her best ever tennis and Evert's main adversary and nemisis of the time, but is no all time great obviously, and a young Hana was playing her best tennis until 85-87 but again no all time great. Anyone who put up better years than Serena in 02-03 had weaker competition than Serena did those two years, minus possibly Seles in the early 90s.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 04:32 AM   #152
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Uh, Graf is not really underrated here or overlooked. Her slam count is the "benchmark" to beat similar to how Sampras was before Federer broke his slam total.

In my opinion Evert is more underrated on this forum than Graf is.

Evert did not have a major "weapon" like so many other of the greats did (Sure her BH was strong but she didnt overpower her opponents with it), played in an era dominated by S&V, and all the while has the best winning percentage of any pro tennis player man or woman.

In addition, she was in 34.... count them 34 Slam Finals... again more than any other man or woman. To put that number into better perspective, that would be 8 and a half straight years of atleast getting to all the Slam Finals of the year. Thats almost as long as many players entire careers at an elite level.

Martina Nav basically had to beef and tone herself to a level Ive not quite seen a female tennis player ever do since in order to finally start getting the better of Evert.

If Chris had been motivated enough to hit the gym like Martina did..... there is no telling how much longer she could have hung around or what her slam total would have been.

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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 05:44 AM   #153
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
I would say this thread is absurd - if anything Graf is slightly overrated, as her winning most GOAT polls shows. I mean she is/was that good. But people are too ready to crown her GOAT in an objective fashion, when there is no objective way to crown someone GOAT.

Court and Evert are overlooked. They both have claims of their own and they're almost never mentioned.
Not to forget Suzanne Lenglen or Helen Wills (Moody) who, from a quick look at this thread, haven't been mentioned yet.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 07:21 AM   #154
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Read, please. I'm comparing Serena's 2002 form to Steffi's 1988 (or, hell, Steffi's 1989, or 1993, or 1995..... she did have numreous seasons that were better than Serena's best, after all).
True..Serena didn't have a golden slam year, so you're right. Of course there's gonna be no need to discuss Serena's vs Maria's best years.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 10:41 AM   #155
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Seriously, This women wins basically every GOAT poll ever created. Shes the benchmark for womens tennis!!

The only player id suggest is overlooked is Evert, the women doesnt get nearly enough acknowledgement on this forum!!
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 11:05 AM   #156
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Lilowannabe View Post
Seriously, This women wins basically every GOAT poll ever created. Shes the benchmark for womens tennis!!

The only player id suggest is overlooked is Evert, the women doesnt get nearly enough acknowledgement on this forum!!
I agree...

Also,as someone mentioned Evert played 34 GS finals and has the best win/loss %...In discussion about her and Navratilova she is always close second,while I think that they deserve equal share of glory as each have same amount of GS tournaments...Navratilova won 10 more titles and was more weeks at number 1 while Evert had the best win/loss % ever and made an amazing 34 GS finals!
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 11:08 AM   #157
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Navratilova has better stats than Evert in everything except consistency. And they played in the same era. That's why Evert is overlooked. But even then she isn't really. She's usually just behind Navratilova.

If anything it's Court that's overlooked, considering she has 24 Grand Slams.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 12:23 PM   #158
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post

If anything it's Court that's overlooked, considering she has 24 Grand Slams.
Her stats are not even officially recorded in the first place to be compared...

Also,it is not comparable the fact that she had a 32 players draw with first round bye for a GS title with all national players in it for 2,3 years(except 2 foreign players that bothered to come) with 128 players draw of today and no byes...

And many people know this and that's why they overlook her...

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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 12:43 PM   #159
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by JCTennisFan View Post
Uh, Graf is not really underrated here or overlooked. Her slam count is the "benchmark" to beat similar to how Sampras was before Federer broke his slam total.

In my opinion Evert is more underrated on this forum than Graf is.

Evert did not have a major "weapon" like so many other of the greats did (Sure her BH was strong but she didnt overpower her opponents with it), played in an era dominated by S&V, and all the while has the best winning percentage of any pro tennis player man or woman.

In addition, she was in 34.... count them 34 Slam Finals... again more than any other man or woman. To put that number into better perspective, that would be 8 and a half straight years of atleast getting to all the Slam Finals of the year. Thats almost as long as many players entire careers at an elite level.

Martina Nav basically had to beef and tone herself to a level Ive not quite seen a female tennis player ever do since in order to finally start getting the better of Evert.

If Chris had been motivated enough to hit the gym like Martina did..... there is no telling how much longer she could have hung around or what her slam total would have been.
Excellent Post.

Evert has said many times though, that Martina spurred her to hit the gym herself. So she did at least try.

In addition, Chris said "if it wasn't for Martina pushing me to be better, I would of probably quit much sooner and not lasted as long".

However, I agree with your post and premise, that Evert has a superb record which is often overlooked. Unfortunately for her, most people only remember how Navratilova started to dominate (and many times dominate Evert) during the second half of her career.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 12:52 PM   #160
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Anabelcroft View Post
Her stats are not even officially recorded in the first place to be compared...

Also,it is not comparable the fact that she had a 32 players draw with first round bye for a GS title with all national players in it for 2,3 years(except 2 foreign players that bothered to come) with 128 players draw of today and no byes...

And many people know this and that's why they overlook her...
She still won 13 Grand Slam singles titles at the French, Wimbledon and US. That's more than what BJK (her closest rival) won in her entire career.

She also won the Grand Slam. She's the best player of the 1960s and first half of 70s.

Also, even if there weren't foreign players or more 128 players, how do you know that she wouldn't have won? Don't you keep saying in tennis, you can't speculate anything, you can only accept facts? Well she won 24 Grand Slam singles titles.

People overlook her because they don't know much about her or that era. Period. It has nothing to do with anything else.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 12:55 PM   #161
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Also, even if there weren't foreign players or more 128 players, how do you know that she wouldn't have won?
You have already put that in my mouth,even though I never said such thing!

If you read my post again,you will see that I never said she wouldn't win...nobody knows if she would,or wouldn't,so I did not speculate about it...

I only said that that's the thing why it is not comparable-that's all!
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 01:00 PM   #162
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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She still won 13 Grand Slam singles titles at the French, Wimbledon and US. That's more than what BJK (her closest rival) won in her entire career.

She also won the Grand Slam. She's the best player of the 1960s and first half of 70s.

Also, even if there weren't foreign players or more 128 players, how do you know that she wouldn't have won? Don't you keep saying in tennis, you can't speculate anything, you can only accept facts? Well she won 24 Grand Slam singles titles.

People overlook her because they don't know much about her or that era. Period. It has nothing to do with anything else.
I can agree with this, just like the ones before her (Lenglen, Moody, etc.).

In addition, others have even gone as far as to say, "there's a conspiracy against her by certain groups in tennis, due to Court's outspokenness on Gay, Lesbian, Transgender life styles". But that's a whole notha argument.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 01:06 PM   #163
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Anabelcroft View Post
You have already put that in my mouth,even though I never said such thing!

If you read my post again,you will see that I never said she wouldn't win...nobody knows if she would,or wouldn't,so I did not speculate about it...

I only said that that's the thing why it is not comparable-that's all!
Ok. Fair enough. But in all fairness, it wasn't like other players were compiling the records that Court had. Her closest rivals in Grand Slam singles count come from players who came after her, with 128 player draws like Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Williams. Helen Wills is the only player who was before her.

Also, people talk about how hard it was to travel to Australia in 60s and 70s. Well it was virtually impossible in the 20s. So shouldn't we be overlooking less the achievements of Helen Wills who actually won 10 consecutive Grand Slam singles titles if you don't count the Australian?

For every seeming advantage, there's a disadvantage.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 01:18 PM   #164
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Her closest rivals in Grand Slam singles count come from players who came after her, with 128 player draws like Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Williams. Helen Wills is the only player who was before her.
Here is not a question of you and me,but about the people who ranked them low in greatest polls because their results are not measured the same way in order to be compared at all...so,they most compare Graf's achievements and stats with Navratilova and Evert as they mostly played under same conditions which are measurable!As do players of today...

I don't talk here about the level of play,but about same conditions they all had to play under...which makes their careers comparable!
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 02:38 PM   #165
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

What really makes this thread a joke is this.

Graf is not overlooked, or overrated, her record it TAINTED. Period.

Check out this IMPORTANT FACT..

What over tennis player in the old era, or the modern era has had their OPPONENT HURT for the sold purpose of advancing another player. Also, when that player advance, her fans state she didn't need any help.

Where on this earth can any one come up with that EXCUSE!

AGain, FACTS:

1.Seles was stabbed to advance Graf.

2.The stabber admits he stabbed Seles to advance Graf.

3.After Seles is out the picture Graf advances and fullfills the stabbers motive.

4.When Graf advance, her fans said she advance on her on skill!

You can take the above to a 5 year old, and they will say, Graf's record is tainted for the simple fact, the stabber did it to advance Graf. Maybe Graf would have advanced even better if Seles was not stabbed. But, once she was stabbed, all what Graf did after that was tainted by the stabber.

Graf fans can tell each other fairy tales and agree with each other, but the real world and history has it record that Graf's rival was stabbed and taken out the picture, so Graf, because of her crazed tennis fan is tainted. BTW, it is also noted in history, that a German court, set the stabber free. Why, because the stabber was German, and Graf was German.
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