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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #136
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Serena's peak has long passed her, 10 years ago, so what point are you making? You think anything since then has been her peak? Maybe close but no cigar.
Read, please. I'm comparing Serena's 2002 form to Steffi's 1988 (or, hell, Steffi's 1989, or 1993, or 1995..... she did have numreous seasons that were better than Serena's best, after all).
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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #137
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Steffi's 1988 (or, hell, Steffi's 1989, or 1993, or 1995..... she did have numreous seasons that were better than Serena's best, after all).
True,nobody had so successful season like Steffi did in 1988 as she achieved the Golden Slam that year!
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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:05 PM   #138
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Graf played from 1986-1997 with no major injuries. Serious injuries, sure, but nothing keeping her away from the game for years at a time. Those are the facts.
No. Those are more like fictions. She has missed a slam in 1987 and 1992 as well.

And for comparison: Serena wasn't kept away from slams (non slams are irrelevant since I'm told players like her tank those) in any greater amount than Steffi: they both missed around a total of ten or so slams in the span of their career once they started playing them



.

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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #139
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

how is steffi overlooked? she ranks number one in almost every list as the greatest women singles player ever.
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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:17 PM   #140
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Then why did she not produce the same quality of Graf's results at her peak? Why did she struggle far more against scrubs than Graf did? Why did she not beat her fellow top players as emphatically as Graf did?
She did.
She did not.
She did.


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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
So who were Serena's big rivals in 2002? Davenport was injured all year. Hingis was done. Henin and Clijsters were having a sophomore slump after their breakthrough seasons. All there was was Venus and..... Capriati? I'm not seeing how that is significantly stronger than Steffi having to compete with Navratilova still playing very well, an Evert still playing moderately well, as well as players like Sabatini and Sukova.
In context, Serena's rivals sound like a stronger team than Graf's, sorry.
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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #141
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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No. Those are more like fictions. Steffi has missed a slam in 1987 and 1992.

And for comparison: Serena wasn't kept away from slams (non slams are irrelevant since I'm told players supposedly tank those) in any greater amount than Steffi: they both missed around a toal of ten or so slams once they started playing them



.

Stop being facetious. Graf missed most of her slams post knee surgery in 1998 just a year before retirement.
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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #142
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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True,nobody had so successful season like Steffi did in 1988 as she achieved the Golden Slam that year!
Are you the real Anabel Croft? That bitch is annoying like crabs as well.
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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:38 PM   #143
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Are you the real Anabel Croft? That bitch is annoying like crabs as well.
As you like to say: the true bitch is back in town!

You want to say that one who just doesn't agree with you is annoying?

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Old Sep 20th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #144
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Graf didn't have more serious injuries than Serena. Well let me rephrase that, she didn't have as many inopportune injuries as Serena did. Serena got her career threatening injuries when she was the dominant player and No.1 in the world. 2003, she had won 5 of the last 6 slams, then after the knee surgery took her almost 2 years to win another with a year long lay off, and movement was grossly affected. 2010, won 5 of the last 8 slams, a foot injury having nothing to do with tennis, surgery, and then she's out for another year, making it another 2 years before winning a slam. Not comparable. Could you imagine Graf having a knee operation in 1989, or 1993? It would've taken her months to recover. Graf did eventually have knee surgery, but it was at the end of her career. Not to say it didn't affect her and her game, because it did, but it's one thing to have these unfortunate health problems at the end of your career than it is when you're the dominant No.1 with no plans of stopping in the foreseeable future.


And, nobody in the history of women's tennis can touch Serena if she serves on grass like she's done this year. Although, she had tight matches with Zheng and Shvedova at Wimbledon, she took care of her serve. And once she broke, the set was over.
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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
Graf played from 1986-1997 with no major injuries. Serious injuries, sure, but nothing keeping her away from the game for years at a time. Those are the facts. Serena didn't have that luxury. Her career was halted during multiple injuries and surgeries.

Again, Graf had back and foot problems throughout her career but they were nagging injuries that didn't force her out of the game which is why she was able to play top level tennis for 10 years straight. As soon as Serena gets a momentum swing, it's usurped by some injury or surgery coming out of nowhere. There careers really aren't comparable. Graf also played a hell of a lot more than Serena. Graf ended at nearly 400 more matches played than Serena has now.

There's no way Serena is going to play more than about 10-12 tournaments a year so if you're looking her to break records, it's not going to happen. Graf regularly played 15+ tournaments a year week in and week out.

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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 12:38 AM   #145
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Read, please. I'm comparing Serena's 2002 form to Steffi's 1988 (or, hell, Steffi's 1989, or 1993, or 1995..... she did have numreous seasons that were better than Serena's best, after all).
2002-2003 arguably had the best and deepest womens field in history though. Serena, Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Capriati, all at or near their peaks, and other major contenders such as a non peaking but still strong Davenport, a non peak but still formidable Mauresmo, Hingis still as a major force in 2002.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 01:07 AM   #146
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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2002-2003 arguably had the best and deepest womens field in history though. Serena, Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Capriati, all at or near their peaks, and other major contenders such as a non peaking but still strong Davenport, a non peak but still formidable Mauresmo, Hingis still as a major force in 2002.
Um... no Hingis still a major force? Davenport was injured almost all of 2002. Henin and Clijsters didn't come into their own until 2003.

It was MUCH better than what came after, but definitely not one of the deepest in history.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 01:12 AM   #147
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Um... no Hingis still a major force? Davenport was injured almost all of 2002. Henin and Clijsters didn't come into their own until 2003.

It was MUCH better than what came after, but definitely not one of the deepest in history.

What was the deepest in history then? Agreed about Hingis though.
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 01:42 AM   #148
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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What was the deepest in history then? Agreed about Hingis though.
Probably the early 80s with Evert, Navratilova, Austin and Mandilikova. Or the early 90s with Graf, Seles, Navs still in the mix, Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini in their primes.

Or even 1999 or 2001. I think those years were stronger depth-wise although they did not have someone as strong as Serena at the top.
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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 03:23 AM   #149
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
Um... no Hingis still a major force? Davenport was injured almost all of 2002. Henin and Clijsters didn't come into their own until 2003.

It was MUCH better than what came after, but definitely not one of the deepest in history.
You will notice I included Hingis in the second group of players I listed who werent near their peaks, but were still formidable. Hingis had 4 match points to win the Australian Open, obviously she was still a noteable player atleast, even if not any longer when Serena was on the other side in their final meetings. Stretch to 2003 though when Henin and Clijsters came into their primes, Davenport returned to tour (not at peak form but still formidable), and Venus and Capriati were still major contenders, and Serena won 2 of the 3 slams, and according to your past comments dissing Henin's U.S Open title presumably (in your view) would have cakewalked to the U.S Open title blindfolded to make it 3 of 4 had she played. So the even stronger 2003 field made no impact on her dominance until injured.

I will go along with DreamOne's question though. If that isnt the deepest field in history, what was, especialy compared to the other Open Era GOATs:

Court- Her main rivals were a usually ill Bueno and a late blooming King, whom she only ever had to deal with one at their best at once, often neither. Bueno played her best ever tennis in 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1964, with Court shining from 1962-1973, only covering one of those years. Court was victimized by a healthy Bueno in the 63 US Open and 64 Wimbledon finals but rarely had to even face that threat in her prime year, in fact that 15 month blip was pretty much it. King's best years of tennis were 1966, 1967, 1968, 1971, and 1972, all years Court either didnt play at all or only played part of the year, except for 1968 which was Court's own worst full year on tour ever. In Court's early reign from 62-65 King was still finding her way and barely making finals for the first time towards the end, while King struggled with major knee problems and starting her own tour during Court's second long reign from 69-71 and went on an over 3 year slamless streak (and numerous others besides Court won majors in that time). The rest of the top women (Jones, Richey, Turner, etc..) then were clay courters in the grass heavy era of 3 of 4 grass majors. On a side note this does make her 5 French Opens very impressive and show what a complete player she was.

Evert- The mid to late 70s had an interesting and diverse field but she still ruled in an era Court was retired, King was well into her 30s on wonky knees, and Navratilova was Fatrilova and nowhere near the player she would be. Her main rival was Evonne Goolagong who won only 1 non Australian Open major after 1971. Next best after that was Virginia Wade who though is a fine player who scraped out 3 surprise majors at various stretches and mostly opportunist junctures, never had remote potential to be a semi dominant or even #1 caliber player (aka not anywhere near even a Davenport or Clijsters level player), and who was usually ranked below even a mid 30s King or Court when they played, or the 200+ plus pound slamless version of Navratilova.

Navratilova- Other than Navratilova, Evert, and non slumping Mandlikova the 82-85 field was an epic joke, and Chris was majorly subpar in 82-84 and then into her 30s in 84-86 (yet still playing much better than her 82, 83, early 84 low).

Graf- Main competition in late 80s dominance was 30 something Navratilova and Sabatini. Only competition in mid 90s dominance was Sanchez Vicario. Like Court her deepest field she faced by far was on clay, which makes her 6 French Opens IMO her most impressive achievement of all, especialy as like Court she isnt supposed to be at her best on clay.


So which GOAT faced anywhere near the competition Serena did in 2002-2003 while they were on top and compiling their most dominant career stats as Serena did for her career in 02/03. The next best who arguably faced more was Seles in the early 90s.

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Old Sep 21st, 2012, 04:10 AM   #150
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Probably the early 80s with Evert, Navratilova, Austin and Mandilikova. Or the early 90s with Graf, Seles, Navs still in the mix, Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini in their primes.

Or even 1999 or 2001. I think those years were stronger depth-wise although they did not have someone as strong as Serena at the top.

Austin, Mandlikova, Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario are pretty comparable to Mauresmo, Clijsters, Seles, Davenport, Hingis of 2002-2003 and Venus, Capriati, and Henin was better than all those aforementioned players. Navratilova barely played in the early 90's besides fast surfaces and was over 34, Graf had tons of personal problems and was in a mini slump, although physically she was fit, and Sanchez Vicario and Sabatini, while good players, aren't even in the same league as a Henin, Davenport, Seles, Clijsters or Henin even in 2002-2003.

And the early 80's aren't a good example either. Remember, this was a time when many players still skipped the AO, and Austin only played there a couple of times from what I remembered. The importance of the AO and even the FO weren't as emphasized as they are today. Don't get me wrong, they were still big tournaments then, but many of the top players skipped the AO. I mean, you would have had to been there to know anything about depth of the field in the early 90's or early 80's unless you've watched a plethora of old tennis clips and I've doubt you, or most others have done that on this board.


I'll give you 1999-2001, but those years aren't dramatically different depth wise than 2002-2003.
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