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Old Sep 16th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #91
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

All of this is the result of the 'fox news' of the middle east imo.
They think there was a Hollywood movie...
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Old Sep 16th, 2012, 11:44 PM   #92
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

Just 2 things to add in this thread:

1) financial aid isn't simply "a little present" USA decides to give random countries for them to develop;
2) deciding to cut aid just because 200 people out of a population of hundreds of thousands/millions protest in front of the american embassy is just retarded.

Are americans really so ignorant about their own history? Is it so hard to realize that the U.S. has kept puppets in power in the middle east for thr whole century, started and participated in countless wars and ALL THIS just to make sure that oil would keep flowing to them at low prices, no matter what? Sure they say they do it in the name of "freedom", "human rights", "democracy", etc... but that's really not true, and it keeps supporting sanguinary dictatorships like that of the Khalifas in Bahrain.

These demonstrations aren't only based on this shitty film, it was just the spark, as there will be many other sparks and outlets.
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 01:18 AM   #93
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

I understand giving money to dictatorships. They are much more reliable and predictable than democracies. Foreign policy is not a place to impose your ideas of democracy on countries that are not ready for it. If there are dictators we deal with dictators that's how it works.
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 03:11 AM   #94
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Foreign policy is not a place to impose your ideas of democracy on countries that are not ready for it.
Horseshit. No country is prepared to deal with democracy peacefully. It's just a matter of how much press the violence gets. The process of going from autotacracy to democracy is inherently disruptive.

Actually, this is horseshit TWICE.

Exempting Iraq, there has been NO 'imposition' of democracy, in the case of the USA, since before WWII. In fact, you might note that virtually no country moving toward democracy adopts the USA model. Virtually all are much more European.

If you believe in the supremacy of democracy, and the idea that your own country is safer if other countries are democracies, foreign policy is EXACTLY to 'impose' your ideas of democracy.

Or rather, you state that any form of a democratic solution is acceptable, and leae it to the people in question to sort it out. We didn't want Morsi in Egypt. But we live withthe result.
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 09:06 AM   #95
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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I do love how 99% of people in this thread ignored this post and continued as if it was never made because it conflict with their twisted view that the arab world is full of American hating barbaric animals!
Is there anything worth comment in this post ? These are Lybians. Totally diffrent mentally than Egyptians, in majority, thanks to Gadaffi, who managed to make them civilised nation.
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #96
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world



I even don;t have time to read.These people really have time
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #97
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Foreign policy is not a place to impose your ideas of democracy on countries that are not ready for it.
I kinda agree. Except I don't think it's a "ready for." If they don't want it, they don't want it. Period. IMO democracy as practiced is in most ways no better or worse than most other systems of government.
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #98
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 07:38 PM   #99
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Kind of an oddment in the reporting I'm seeing and hearing today, even on NPR, is that 'AntiAmerican demonstrations are sweeping Egypt, Yemen, Tunis ....' and 'American Ambassador killed', yet what's happening IN Libya isn't being reported.

NOTE: Libya just had a war we helped on side win. The guys on the losing side aren't gone. The fighting has just stopped. The country is full of weapons, the central government is weak, and it's a tribal society in the first place. Somebody who wants the Americans out just made their move. A move. There will be more.

My vote is we find out who financed and organized this, and 'extraordinary render' their fat ass back here, and have a very public trial. And if they give up every goddamn one of their cronies, they live. At Gitmo, on bread and water, but they live.
As I pointed out earlier, the Libyans just elected a secular government. The group behind the assassination of our embassy staff is a group of hardcore jihadists who are fearful of losing out in the change of power. This attack was part of a last-ditch effort to rally the support of their fellow fanatics. It's as much about striking out at moderate Libyans who want no more experiments with absolutism of any sort as it is expressing anger at the U.S.

In Egypt, many of the rioters have connections to the most hardline elements who have left the Muslim Brotherhood because they regard it as being too moderate.

These riots are rarely just about what they appear to be about. There is almost always a local subtext that helps galvanize people to take to the streets. They are willing to tear up their own streets and attack their fellow citizens because these people regard their fellow Libyans/Egyptians as apostates, too.

That's why so many Libyans and even members of the Muslim Brotherhood have been counterdemonstrating or condemning these idiots. The US media is doing a terrible job of covering this.
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Old Sep 17th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #100
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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You're a fucking idiot. If you're gonna ride around on a high horse, take your head out of it's ass.
I said most Americans.

I am fully aware on how clued-up you are

Also my tongue was quite firmly in my cheek
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Old Sep 18th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #101
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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CAIRO (AP) — Ambassador Chris Stevens was still breathing when Libyans stumbled across him inside a room in the American Consulate in Benghazi, cheering, "Alive, alive" and "God is great" when they discovered he was still breathing and then trying to rescue him after last week's deadly attack in the eastern Libyan city, witnesses told The Associated Press on Monday.

Fahd al-Bakoush, a freelance videographer, was among the Libyan civilians roaming freely through the consulate after gunmen and protesters rampaged through it last Tuesday night. Al-Bakoush said he heard someone call out that he had tripped over a dead body.

A group of people gathered as several men pulled the seemingly lifeless form from the room. They saw he was alive and a foreigner, though no one knew who he was, al-Bakoush said. He was breathing and his eyelids flickered, he said. "He was alive," he said. "No doubt. His face was blackened and he was like a paralyzed person."

Video taken by al-Bakoush and posted on YouTube shows Stevens being carried out of a dark room through a window with a raised shutter by a crowd of men. "Bring him out, man," someone shouts. "Out of the way, out of the way!"
"Alive, Alive!" come other shouts, then a cheer of "God is great."

The next scene shows Stevens lying on a tile floor, with one man touching his neck to check his pulse.
The video has been authenticated since Stevens' face is clearly visible and he is wearing the same white t-shirt seen in authenticated photos of him being carried away on another man's shoulders, presumably moments later. Two colleagues of al-Bakoush who also witnessed the scene confirmed that he took the footage.

Stevens and three other Americans were killed in the attack on the consulate, part of a wave of assaults on U.S. diplomatic missions in Muslim countries over a low-budget movie made in the United States that denigrates the Prophet Muhammad.
The accounts of all three witnesses mesh with that of the doctor who treated Stevens that night. Last week, the doctor told The Associated Press that Stevens was nearly lifeless when he was brought by Libyans, with no other Americans around, to the Benghazi hospital where he worked. He said Stevens had severe asphyxia from the smoke and that he tried to resuscitate him with no success. Only later did security officials confirm it was Stevens.

A freelance photographer who was with al-Bakoush at the scene, Abdel-Qader Fadl, said Stevens was unconscious and "maybe moved his head, but only once."

Ahmed Shams, a 22-year-old arts student who works with the two, said the group cried out "God is great" in celebration after discovering he wasn't dead. "We were happy to see him alive. The youth tried to rescue him. But there was no security, no ambulances, nothing to help," he said.

The men carried Stevens to a private car to drive him to the hospital since there was no ambulance, all three witnesses said.

Hope the Libyans can sort out these problems soon, its pretty clear they're a generally laid back people and not used to this sort of violence. I've read articles that the violence is only coming from tiny groups but they just arent used to fighting back like they did to Gadaffi. I remember one Libyan here said they and the Irish are extremely similiar.
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Old Sep 18th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #102
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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As I pointed out earlier, the Libyans just elected a secular government. The group behind the assassination of our embassy staff is a group of hardcore jihadists who are fearful of losing out in the change of power. This attack was part of a last-ditch effort to rally the support of their fellow fanatics. It's as much about striking out at moderate Libyans who want no more experiments with absolutism of any sort as it is expressing anger at the U.S.
The next question being, do you offer any more help, who do you help if you do, and how do you help them?

Running around handing out bags of money like we did in Iraq in 2003-4 didn't work at all. Our best guy on what was needed is dead now. Maybe 2nd best guy is real sharp. And maybe he's an assclown. ANd of course, if Israel bombs Iran before the election, Obama can't condemn them, Romney won't condemn them, and then we'll REALLY see 'anti-American anger sweeps the Muslim world'.

The religious extremists, Christians, Jews, Muslims here and in the Middle East, have a very strong hand to play. It's easy to start a forest fire in a drought. It's hard to prevent a forest fire in a drought.
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Old Sep 18th, 2012, 01:04 PM   #103
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Originally Posted by Volcana View Post
The next question being, do you offer any more help, who do you help if you do, and how do you help them?

Running around handing out bags of money like we did in Iraq in 2003-4 didn't work at all. Our best guy on what was needed is dead now. Maybe 2nd best guy is real sharp. And maybe he's an assclown. ANd of course, if Israel bombs Iran before the election, Obama can't condemn them, Romney won't condemn them, and then we'll REALLY see 'anti-American anger sweeps the Muslim world'.

The religious extremists, Christians, Jews, Muslims here and in the Middle East, have a very strong hand to play. It's easy to start a forest fire in a drought. It's hard to prevent a forest fire in a drought.
Do the Americans really want the best guy or a yesman in charge in these countries? In Iraq they appointed Jay Garner to lead the rebuilding and he was the best guy for it, but he told the Bush govt some things they didnt want to hear so they replaced him with incompetents and thats where all the problems started.
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Old Sep 18th, 2012, 01:24 PM   #104
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Do the Americans really want the best guy or a yesman in charge in these countries? In Iraq they appointed Jay Garner to lead the rebuilding and he was the best guy for it, but he told the Bush govt some things they didnt want to hear so they replaced him with incompetents and thats where all the problems started.
The only "problem" with Garner was that he was all for giving complete sovereignity back to Iraq as soon as possible, while Bush wanted to wet his beak just a bit longer....
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Old Sep 18th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #105
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Re: Anti-American anger sweeps Muslim world

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Originally Posted by Volcana View Post
The next question being, do you offer any more help, who do you help if you do, and how do you help them?

Running around handing out bags of money like we did in Iraq in 2003-4 didn't work at all. Our best guy on what was needed is dead now. Maybe 2nd best guy is real sharp. And maybe he's an assclown. ANd of course, if Israel bombs Iran before the election, Obama can't condemn them, Romney won't condemn them, and then we'll REALLY see 'anti-American anger sweeps the Muslim world'.

The religious extremists, Christians, Jews, Muslims here and in the Middle East, have a very strong hand to play. It's easy to start a forest fire in a drought. It's hard to prevent a forest fire in a drought.
All good questions. Let's just say I have greater faith in the current administration to get the equation right than I do the other option. My personal feeling is that in general the Libyan people deserve our support as they go about rebuilding after this civil war, and I believe a huge majority of them want a basically secular, pro-Western government. Sure, it may not be exactly like our definition of what a democracy is, but if it works for them that's the important thing. I think we continue our current policies, with better security.

Quote:
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The only "problem" with Garner was that he was all for giving complete sovereignity back to Iraq as soon as possible, while Bush wanted to wet his beak just a bit longer....
I wanted to puke when Bush started bragging about bringing democracy to Libya and holding free elections--only after the Ayatollah Sistani threatened to put a million armed men in the streets. And the number of Americans who still parrot the Bush version.
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