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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #91
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Exactly, Azarenka was just trying to make herself feel better, she wanted to be able to tell herself "atleast I choked away a Slam final against the greatest ever". How come players who say Serena is the greatest like Azarenka are more authoritative than players who say they don't think she's the greatest ever (e.g. Maria)?




Go and watch Graf agaianst Sanchez Vicario in the AO final 1994.
I did, I did on youtube, Graf play a super match, I agree. However, it was as strong as Serena over Maria in the Olympics, with the 6-0/6-1 victory. and that was coming off a win over vika at almost the same low score. That is the reason vika is saying that Serena is the best ever... Take another look at both those matches..
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #92
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Well, Serena is the only "great" Azarenka remembers.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #93
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by TennisPhan View Post
I have a question for the die-hard Navratilova and Graf fans.

What will it take for you to consider that Serena could be the greatest female tennis player of alltime? If Serena retires with more GS singles titles than Graf, will she then be the greatest? Does she also need to play another 10 years to win more titles and spend more weeks at #1? (or just the slams). Personally, for me she is the best / greatest even if she retires today.

I am curious, because she has anounced that she will be playing at least 4 more years and a lot can happen for her if she stays active. What will it take?

I respect Azarenka's opinion, and I respect Serena's achievement, but I did not know that counting the Slam titles is so difficult.

Let Serena win 18 Slam titles first and then we can begin to talk...
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #94
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
I respect Azarenka's opinion, and I respect Serena's achievement, but I did not know that counting the Slam titles is so difficult.

Let Serena win 18 Slam titles first and then we can begin to talk...
It is difficult when you have a fan of another player stabbed the rival of said player, it becomes a little difficult when you talk about that player's slame count!

I hope to gawd nobody attacks vika for the sole purpose of advancing Serena. If that did happen, Serena chances of winning slams will GREATLY INCREASE. As did Graf when Seles was stabbed by a crazed Graf fan who wanted to advance Graf in slams and in the ranking. This is all DOCUMENTED for all to see.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 06:08 PM   #95
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Griffin. View Post
Charleston against Stosur was probably the best I've ever seen her play. I don't know if tennis can be played any better than that.
AMEN!!! I'm very glad I'm not the only one (along with commentators) that agree that was the best display of tennis in tennis history. Serena is the most technically sound player in tennis history!
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #96
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
It is difficult when you have a fan of another player stabbed the rival of said player, it becomes a little difficult when you talk about that player's slame count!

I hope to gawd nobody attacks vika for the sole purpose of advancing Serena. If that did happen, Serena chances of winning slams will GREATLY INCREASE. As did Graf when Seles was stabbed by a crazed Graf fan who wanted to advance Graf in slams and in the ranking. This is all DOCUMENTED for all to see.

Seles played until 2003. Serena won her first Slam in 1999 and had her most dominant period in 2002/03 - useing your logic Serena's record could be considered tainted as well.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #97
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by edificio View Post
Greatest player of the last 13 years. No doubt. Greatest player Azarenka has ever played, too.
Exactly.

Also players in the past aren't really talked about in any sport by experts, commentators, analysts and professional players. Well they are here a bit but I did say experts, commentators, analysts and professional players. And I did mean in the real world they aren't. Their legacy is well-documented but the players in any sport that are talked about are the players who are currently playing. There's always a natural tendency for players and commentators to heap praise on the player being talked about.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #98
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

It is a joy for me for Serena to even be in the conversation, even if she's at the margins of the discussion compared to the "GOAT" or "GOATs."

All I wanted in 2006 was for her to come back and play and win, same in 2011. And she did both times! How could I ask for more? Plus, she's considered the greatest of her generation. What an honour and inspiration.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #99
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
Kim said she thought Serena was the greatest ever at this tournament. That's two slam champs and #1s at this tournament alone. A bit more reliable for a valid opinion than Dslanders' drivel.

Kim is also more likely to have a clear opinion than anyone else active, because she has played Graf.
I don't think yopu should make too much out of it and analyse what a player like Kim says to the nth degree. Bottom line is Kim will usually praise to the hilt every player she is asked about. When she was unexpectedly beaten by Peng in the QF at San Diego in 2005 - she praised Peng and when asked how high up the rankings Peng would go - she said definitely top 3. So would you say Kim is an authority on that because she played her?

A lot of the time - players like Kim just want to be nice and heap praise on a player and when they are being asked questions - they are focusing on the player they are being asked about and who is or has been playing very well.

So I wouldn't over-analyse these things to the letter too much that these players say to try to bolster these "who is the greatest" arguments.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #100
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by cehowardrx7 View Post
It is difficult when you have a fan of another player stabbed the rival of said player, it becomes a little difficult when you talk about that player's slame count!

I hope to gawd nobody attacks vika for the sole purpose of advancing Serena. If that did happen, Serena chances of winning slams will GREATLY INCREASE. As did Graf when Seles was stabbed by a crazed Graf fan who wanted to advance Graf in slams and in the ranking. This is all DOCUMENTED for all to see.
Your point is relevant when talking about Graf being the GOAT or not, and of course when discussing Seles, but it is not relevant to how she compares with Serena. Even without the stabbing Graf would almost certainly have more slams than Serena's current total (15) and she obliterates Serena in every other available statistic. 45 tournament wins vs 107 (or say 100-103 without the Seles stabbing, still an embarassing blowout), 10 straight years ranked #1 or #2 vs a career that sees you drop out of the top 100 in your mid 20s, 186 straight weeks at #1 vs being unable to even keep #1 for barely over a year at your peak, a Grand Slam and something like an 80-2 record in your two best years ever vs the best of what Serena has managed, I could go on forever basically. Had the Seles stabbing not happened, Serena would only be hurt further as not only would Graf still easily be ahead of her, but Seles would very likely be ahead of her at this point now as well, in addition to the many others who do based on their numerous years of consecutive total dominance of the game, which Serena has never even come close to matching.

Court, Evert, Navratilova, Wills Moody are some others who are light years ahead of Serena in every category, slam titles, and everything else. While not ahead of Serena in slam victories, Lenglen and Connolly could be argued as being ahead of Serena too.

In short Serena is nowhere near the best player of all time, and whatever you are trying to argue has no bearing on that.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #101
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by TennisPhan View Post
I have a question for the die-hard Navratilova and Graf fans.

What will it take for you to consider that Serena could be the greatest female tennis player of alltime? If Serena retires with more GS singles titles than Graf, will she then be the greatest? Does she also need to play another 10 years to win more titles and spend more weeks at #1? (or just the slams). Personally, for me she is the best / greatest even if she retires today.

I am curious, because she has anounced that she will be playing at least 4 more years and a lot can happen for her if she stays active. What will it take?
I am not a fan of either Navratilova or Graf, but I am a form of two of the other possible best ever Court and Evert (and Seles, although I know I am in the minority of thinking she can even be in the argument). What Serena would need to do in order to be the best ever:

-Win atleast 20 slams. Definitely win more slams than Martina and Chris. Right now she hasnt even won enough to bring the "what if the Australian Open" "or what if she wasnt stabbed" into play for Court and Graf, nor is she close to the unasterixed marks of Wills, Chris, or Martina either.

-Spend alot more time at #1. This is a no brainer. As bad as the WTA ranking system is, and as much as I concur she is clearly the best player in the World much of the time she isnt ranked #1, she still needs major imrpovement in this stat.

-Needs another 4 or 5 years of top level tennis. Serena probably already has the greatest longevity of any player in history, but the reason she needs this is not for that category, but to overcame that 5 year hold she barely did anything, she needs to stretch out to a year of about 10 years straight of top 3 slam winning caliber tennis.

-Win a 2nd French. This is another no brainer. The GOAT cant have only 1 title at any of the 4 slams, and she really needs some more semis or finals here if possible too.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #102
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

It is common for new tennis fans to doubt past generation's greats and overhype their own. Wait for Serena to retire and in 5-10 years the "new" tennis fans will say that player X would definitely beat her or question her accomplishments
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 07:26 PM   #103
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

I do think Serena has the talent to be the GOAT. It is now up to her to maximize. She is doing nicely now, but she needs to continue going in her current direction, and things like the Roland Garros 1st round loss which probably is also why she isnt ranked #1 right have to stop in the future if she is to ever catch GOAT status. She still has alot of ground to make up on alot of women. The numbers speak for themselves.

Serena at her best would probably beat any women player in history on hard courts or grass, but that isnt enough to be GOAT on its own.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #104
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Of course Azarenka would say that, she has incentive to praise the player she has lost to 10 times -- it makes her feel better about those losses. Duh.

Serena will never touch Graf as far as accomplishments are concerned. More importantly, she doesn't have the GAME to match Graf. Her only advantage is the serve, Graf was a better player in all other aspects, from movement to forehand to backhand to volleys to variety to consistency to fitness.
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Old Oct 7th, 2012, 08:29 PM   #105
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
Of course Azarenka would say that, she has incentive to praise the player she has lost to 10 times -- it makes her feel better about those losses. Duh.

Serena will never touch Graf as far as accomplishments are concerned. More importantly, she doesn't have the GAME to match Graf. Her only advantage is the serve, Graf was a better player in all other aspects, from movement to forehand to backhand to volleys to variety to consistency to fitness.
I think game wise Serena matches up well with Graf. I dont agree on the backhand. Serena can crush winners off her backhand, Graf never could do that with mostly hitting slice backhands.

I would give Serena the first serve, second serve, return, and backhand if both are playing their best. Graf the forehand, probably volleys, probably movement. I do think Serena at her best would beat Graf at hers on hard courts or grass. We see too Graf failed when she came up against great opposition in or close to their primes. In 1987 and already in her prime she was outdone by a 30 year old Navratilova in major events, not getting the upper hand until Martina turned 31. She was 1-3 vs Seles and 3-4 vs her overall from 1990-1993.

That said in all time greatness it is still Graf >>>>> Serena by a landslide at this point. Even without the Seles stabbing, Graf would be almost sure to have more (or at absolute worst as many) slams as Serena, and all her other career stats blow Serena away. If we are going to presume no Seles stabbing then Seles deserves to be ranked over Serena too then, as she would be over Serena without the stabbing right now. Graf isnt the only one above Serena though, many others are too, it is doubtful if Serena's career is even top 5 worthy at this point. Subjective arguments like peak level play can only take you so far. When Serena gets to 18 slams people can start comparing to her to the greatest players ever more seriously, right now it is nothing more than current player hype.
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