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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:40 AM   #31
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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It's just because she is the only active great player. When people look back in years to come, she probably won't be remembered by many as the GOAT. She just doesn't have the credentials.
Nonsense. Margaret Court? Only on this forum have I heard her mentioned in the same breath as Graf and Navratilova.

Whereas in the tennis world pundits have been wanting to mention Serena in the same breath as Navratilova, Graf, Evert for YEARS. Her game has been there since 2002. She just needed some more stats to back it up.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:42 AM   #32
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

That's because she only really knows about tennis from the last 10-15 years.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #33
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
They were in the draw but was it after their comebacks?

And she struggled from 2004-2008 and then suddenly wins slams again. She probably wouldnt be as dominant if there was a challenger (like Henin in her prime or even Sharapova or Mauresmo in their primes). And even without a challenger she didn't put up Graf or Navratilova-like dominance.

I'm just stating realities. And Kim, although a favorite of mine, is not an all-time great. So there's not really a comparison.
She struggled mainly because of injury and surgery though in 2003. It's not like her own level dropped dramatically or even the players got better. Serena's biggest rival, Capriati, was on her way out when Serena returned from knee surgery. And, Justine was barely a factor in 2004 or 2005 at ALL so it's not like she would've even been around enough to keep Serena from winning majors. BTW, Kim and Justine were BOTH in the draw in 6 slams that Serena won just to let you know. Conversely, Serena was out injured in 4 of the 7 slams Justine won and half the ones Kim won where Serena was defending champion. The argument about her competition is pretty irrelevant especially if you actually believe Kim and Justine were going to be an unstoppable force for Serena in majors consistently. Not saying they couldn't have beaten her, but Serena has never gotten owned by anyone in her career. Capriati beat her 3 times in a row and Serena turned it around and beat her 8 times in a row.


This argument is moot. Serena is not a traditional tennis player and pretty atypical. Players like Graf, Evert and Navratilova had an 8-10 year period where their bodies were healthy enough to avoid any major injuries or surgeries. Serena didn't have that. And, this last injury wasn't even tennis related at all. But, you're saying that Serena is lucky because of the weak competition when I think it's ridiculous considering the entire field is lucky then because of her relinquishing her No.1 when she was holding multiple slams and was forced to leave the game, not as if someone came around and started beating her.

And, screw that argument about the Belgians leaving the game. Even if they stayed around, their hearts weren't in it, they were burnt out, and likely would've lost early before even meeting Serena. They left because of personal reasons, not physical, unlike Serena. Although Serena did have some personal issues in 2005 and 2006, it all started with the unfortunate knee surgery that took her years to recover from.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #34
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
She struggled mainly because of injury and surgery though in 2003. It's not like her own level dropped dramatically or even the players got better. Serena's biggest rival, Capriati, was on her way out when Serena returned from knee surgery. And, Justine was barely a factor in 2004 or 2005 at ALL so it's not like she would've even been around enough to keep Serena from winning majors. BTW, Kim and Justine were BOTH in the draw in 6 slams that Serena won just to let you know. Conversely, Serena was out injured in 4 of the 7 slams Justine won and half the ones Kim won where Serena was defending champion. The argument about her competition is pretty irrelevant especially if you actually believe Kim and Justine were going to be an unstoppable force for Serena in majors consistently. Not saying they couldn't have beaten her, but Serena has never gotten owned by anyone in her career. Capriati beat her 3 times in a row and Serena turned it around and beat her 8 times in a row.


This argument is moot. Serena is not a traditional tennis player and pretty atypical. Players like Graf, Evert and Navratilova had an 8-10 year period where their bodies were healthy enough to avoid any major injuries or surgeries. Serena didn't have that. And, this last injury wasn't even tennis related at all. But, you're saying that Serena is lucky because of the weak competition when I think it's ridiculous considering the entire field is lucky then because of her relinquishing her No.1 when she was holding multiple slams and was forced to leave the game, not as if someone came around and started beating her.

And, screw that argument about the Belgians leaving the game. Even if they stayed around, their hearts weren't in it, they were burnt out, and likely would've lost early before even meeting Serena. They left because of personal reasons, not physical, unlike Serena. Although Serena did have some personal issues in 2005 and 2006, it all started with the unfortunate knee surgery that took her years to recover from.
false, you forgetting sybille bammer?
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #35
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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John McEnroe, Kim Clijsters, and John Werthiem have all echoed similar sentiments....it's starting to catch on with most people. Her legacy is at an all time high and I just look forward to it's continued growth!

Go Rena!
Well said.

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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 01:13 AM   #36
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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She struggled mainly because of injury and surgery though in 2003. It's not like her own level dropped dramatically or even the players got better. Serena's biggest rival, Capriati, was on her way out when Serena returned from knee surgery. And, Justine was barely a factor in 2004 or 2005 at ALL so it's not like she would've even been around enough to keep Serena from winning majors. BTW, Kim and Justine were BOTH in the draw in 6 slams that Serena won just to let you know. Conversely, Serena was out injured in 4 of the 7 slams Justine won and half the ones Kim won where Serena was defending champion. The argument about her competition is pretty irrelevant especially if you actually believe Kim and Justine were going to be an unstoppable force for Serena in majors consistently. Not saying they couldn't have beaten her, but Serena has never gotten owned by anyone in her career. Capriati beat her 3 times in a row and Serena turned it around and beat her 8 times in a row.


This argument is moot. Serena is not a traditional tennis player and pretty atypical. Players like Graf, Evert and Navratilova had an 8-10 year period where their bodies were healthy enough to avoid any major injuries or surgeries. Serena didn't have that. And, this last injury wasn't even tennis related at all. But, you're saying that Serena is lucky because of the weak competition when I think it's ridiculous considering the entire field is lucky then because of her relinquishing her No.1 when she was holding multiple slams and was forced to leave the game, not as if someone came around and started beating her.

And, screw that argument about the Belgians leaving the game. Even if they stayed around, their hearts weren't in it, they were burnt out, and likely would've lost early before even meeting Serena. They left because of personal reasons, not physical, unlike Serena. Although Serena did have some personal issues in 2005 and 2006, it all started with the unfortunate knee surgery that took her years to recover from.
So she struggled because of injury and surgery for four years?
And you act as if Graf or Navratilova or Evert never had any injuries whatsoever.

I'm saying that Kim, Justine, and others who retired or became irrelevant would have been much bigger challengers than Aga Radwanska and Victoria Azarenka.

This is the weakest period of the Open Era by far. I'm not saying that Serena would have won more or less, but I am taking that into account when people try to call Serena GOAT or a GOAT contender despite not even being close in many of the major statistical categories.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 01:17 AM   #37
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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false, you forgetting sybille bammer?
Nobody has ever owned Serena williams. Just ask Davenport, Capriati, Azarenka, and many unremarkables she owned whom I don't care to name.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #38
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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So she struggled because of injury and surgery for four years?
And you act as if Graf or Navratilova or Evert never had any injuries whatsoever.

I'm saying that Kim, Justine, and others who retired or became irrelevant would have been much bigger challengers than Aga Radwanska and Victoria Azarenka.

This is the weakest period of the Open Era by far. I'm not saying that Serena would have won more or less, but I am taking that into account when people try to call Serena GOAT or a GOAT contender despite not even being close in many of the major statistical categories.
Who said she struggled for 4 years? You act like she was irrelevant during that time. She still reached 5 GS finals in that time. But, the surgery was a huge contributor to her lack of dominance. Justine would be passed the age of 30 if she stayed around and her body was already on its last legs. Kim wants to start a family and gets an injury every tournament it appears. So, it's delusional to think either would be a factor if they staged a comeback. I can't even think of any players young enough right now that would be a threat. All the aforementioned players you discussed are far too old to even be considered.


Serena could never catch up to them statistic wise because she hasn't played enough and said she's not chasing history.

Graf won 3 slams between 1990 and 1993 FO. When Seles was stabbed, Graf won 4 slams in a row. Perhaps a coincidence? Who knows, but ASV was her only remote competition at the time and I actually think 1995 and 1996 was by far the weakest period in women's tennis history.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #39
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

Also, why are people continuously putting Azarenka down? I think a young Azarenka would be a lot consistently tougher on the tour than a way past her prime 30 year old Henin, and an injury prone Clijsters who has barely plays anyway. Azarenka had a great year, won a GS, an additional final and SF, and 4 overall titles and multiple other finals. Face it, she's a pretty elite player at this point, no denying that.

This is also the first time I can remember in years where the Top 4 all reached GS finals and 3 of the 4 won GS titles. Funny how this is the weakest era considering the ranking in late 2010 and all of 2011 when Wozniacki was No.1 and Stosur, Schiavone and Na Li were vulturing slams.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 02:07 AM   #40
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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She struggled mainly because of injury and surgery though in 2003. It's not like her own level dropped dramatically or even the players got better. Serena's biggest rival, Capriati, was on her way out when Serena returned from knee surgery. And, Justine was barely a factor in 2004 or 2005 at ALL so it's not like she would've even been around enough to keep Serena from winning majors. BTW, Kim and Justine were BOTH in the draw in 6 slams that Serena won just to let you know. Conversely, Serena was out injured in 4 of the 7 slams Justine won and half the ones Kim won where Serena was defending champion. The argument about her competition is pretty irrelevant especially if you actually believe Kim and Justine were going to be an unstoppable force for Serena in majors consistently. Not saying they couldn't have beaten her, but Serena has never gotten owned by anyone in her career. Capriati beat her 3 times in a row and Serena turned it around and beat her 8 times in a row.


This argument is moot. Serena is not a traditional tennis player and pretty atypical. Players like Graf, Evert and Navratilova had an 8-10 year period where their bodies were healthy enough to avoid any major injuries or surgeries. Serena didn't have that. And, this last injury wasn't even tennis related at all. But, you're saying that Serena is lucky because of the weak competition when I think it's ridiculous considering the entire field is lucky then because of her relinquishing her No.1 when she was holding multiple slams and was forced to leave the game, not as if someone came around and started beating her.

And, screw that argument about the Belgians leaving the game. Even if they stayed around, their hearts weren't in it, they were burnt out, and likely would've lost early before even meeting Serena. They left because of personal reasons, not physical, unlike Serena. Although Serena did have some personal issues in 2005 and 2006, it all started with the unfortunate knee surgery that took her years to recover from.
Great discourse. You knowledge of the game is impressive.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 02:18 AM   #41
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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This argument is moot. Serena is not a traditional tennis player and pretty atypical. Players like Graf, Evert and Navratilova had an 8-10 year period where their bodies were healthy enough to avoid any major injuries or surgeries. Serena didn't have that. And, this last injury wasn't even tennis related at all. But, you're saying that Serena is lucky because of the weak competition when I think it's ridiculous considering the entire field is lucky then because of her relinquishing her No.1 when she was holding multiple slams and was forced to leave the game, not as if someone came around and started beating her.
staying healthy is one of the particles of the word "greatness" . Federer and Navratilova will confirm.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 02:24 AM   #42
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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staying healthy is one of the particles of the word "greatness" . Federer and Navratilova will confirm.
Then certainly you must not be including Steffi Graf in the "greatness" category, then, right? http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/11/sp...ng-layoff.html
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 02:47 AM   #43
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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How are there so many GOATS? I have heard arguments made for Evert, Graf, Navratilova, and Court.

I don't know how you could think Serena has anything on these players. She may in the future, but now?
Graf's career has the huge asterix of the Seles stabbing as you have been the first to point out many times over. How many less slams would Graf have won? Who knows, but it is quite possible Serena would be tieing her in slam wins with this U.S Open or at the upcoming Australian Open had it not happened. Graf showed at various times when faced with other big hitters or good defenders she can either be impatient (matches vs Seles and Sanchez Vicario, especialy on clay) or sometimes overpowered (93 Australian and 95 U.S Open vs Seles, matches with Davenport, Venus, Serena towards end of career). Serena eats other big hitters or strong defenders for breakfast. That is a form that some might suggest shows superior ability, not neccessarily true, but not an invalid argument either. Also feel to correct me if I am wrong, but havent you stated more than once you feel Seles should be rated above Graf. Well if so surely you could easily make a case for Serena being above Graf, after all there isnt much or any case for Seles being above Serena so if Seles > Graf then Serena....

Evert and Navratilova you are right on but seriously how competitive was womens tennis then compared to now, even in period people say are "weak" fields like the last few years, there is still far more depth than the Martina/Chris show that ran for years. Navratilova dominated a super weak 1982-1986, with only an either very sluggish Chris (82-83 especialy) or 30 something Chris (late 84 and beyond), and Hana once she came out of her lengthy slump (late 85 to early 87) as competitive, with other abysmal group of top tenners, with doubles specialist and overachieving solid singles performer Shriver as the clear best of the rest. You wouldnt see Martina lose only 3 matches in 2 years if she had to face all of Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Capriati, and a few others in or near their primes like Serena did when she dominated in 2002/2003. Evert faced more competition, but the way she was beaten down so easily by Martina for awhile once Martina came into her prime, stands against her in a big way.

I think Court is unfairly diminished, but the truth is regardless what I think many will point out the Australian Open status of the 60s and 70s, and that the womens game was probably less competitive pre Open Era.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 02:54 AM   #44
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

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Graf's career has the huge asterix of the Seles stabbing as you have been the first to point out many times over. How many less slams would Graf have won? Who knows, but it is quite possible Serena would be tieing her in slam wins with this U.S Open or at the upcoming Australian Open had it not happened. Graf showed at various times when faced with other big hitters or good defenders she can either be impatient (matches vs Seles and Sanchez Vicario, especialy on clay) or sometimes overpowered (93 Australian and 95 U.S Open vs Seles, matches with Davenport, Venus, Serena towards end of career). Serena eats other big hitters or strong defenders for breakfast. That is a form that some might suggest shows superior ability, not neccessarily true, but not an invalid argument either.

Evert and Navratilova you are right on but seriously how competitive was womens tennis then compared to now, even in period people say are "weak" fields like the last few years, there is still far more depth than the Martina/Chris show that ran for years. Navratilova dominated a super weak 1982-1986, with only an either very sluggish Chris (82-83 especialy) or 30 something Chris (late 84 and beyond), and Hana once she came out of her lengthy slump (late 85 to early 87) as competitive, with other abysmal group of top tenners, with doubles specialist and overachieving solid singles performer Shriver as the clear best of the rest. You wouldnt see Martina lose only 3 matches in 2 years if she had to face all of Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Capriati, and a few others in or near their primes like Serena did when she dominated in 2002/2003. Evert faced more competition, but the way she was beaten down so easily by Martina for awhile once Martina came into her prime, stands against her in a big way.

I think Court is unfairly diminished, but the truth is regardless what I think many will point out the Australian Open status of the 60s and 70s, and that the womens game was probably less competitive pre Open Era.


Well, to be fair, most of the big tournaments were on grass during the 70's and 80's and they all had a successful serve and volley game that translated. If 60% of the tournaments were on a hardcourt, like today, I think things would be alot different. More injuries, less serve and volley, and we probably wouldn't have seen the longevity we saw from most of the players. Hardcourt is a very baseline driven surface, even more than clay IMO, and overall movement plays a much bigger factor on a hardcourt.
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 03:19 AM   #45
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Re: Says Azarenka, Serena is the greatest player of all time

if Monica hadn't been stabbed, she might have been a threat for Serena's titles from 1999-2003
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