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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 04:26 PM   #31
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by pov View Post
Interesting that S.Williams apparently has always played the least amount allowed. It's one of the things that IMO counts against her in GOAT discussions. Her best seasons don't match Graf's:

1987: 69-2
1988: 73-3
1989: 87-2
1990: 72-5
1991: 75-8
1992: 71-7
1993: 76-6
You bring up a good point, cause it's been proven the less amount of tournaments you play, the better chance you have of winning majors (usually 12-16).

Serena has basically eschewed the current "physicality" of todays tour, by making sure she only plays about 12-16 tournaments a year.

It's kinda like the Lance Armstrong school of Biking (minus the doping).

Instead of Armstrong entering other races, he just concentrated every year on the Tour De France, which he obviously won 7 yrs in a row.

However, many cycling historians, felt you couldn't compare his feat to other multi Tour winners, who also won multiple other events the same year as their Tour DeFrance wins.

Chrissie, Martina and Graf, all dominated the regular tour, as well as the majors, and being #1.

That's what they all have over Serena.

And you can't use the argument, "how physical the tour is today" in Serena's defense, cause she doesn't play a lot of matches, relative to her contemporaries, through out her career anyway.

Of course Serena, has her own arguments, but certainly not those above.
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 04:38 PM   #32
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

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Originally Posted by MrSerenaWilliams View Post
Wouldn't that be a positive for her? She's been able to win 14+ majors playing almost 1/2 the schedule of anyone else who's won more?
It's been shown and pretty accepted by historical analysis, that if you play too many tournaments, it lessens your chance of winning majors each year.

The accepted sweet spot is usually 12-16 tournaments a year. Maybe you can even squeeze in 1-2 more to that number (and limit it at 20).

But if you play 12-16, it only increases your chances of winning majors more so.
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #33
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Not a calender year but from 1st August 2011 to 1st August 2012:

Julia Cohen 50-39
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #34
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
You bring up a good point, cause it's been proven the less amount of tournaments you play, the better chance you have of winning majors (usually 12-16).

Serena has basically eschewed the current "physicality" of todays tour, by making sure she only plays about 12-16 tournaments a year.

It's kinda like the Lance Armstrong school of Biking (minus the doping).

Instead of Armstrong entering other races, he just concentrated every year on the Tour De France, which he obviously won 7 yrs in a row.

However, many cycling historians, felt you couldn't compare his feat to other multi Tour winners, who also won multiple other events the same year as their Tour DeFrance wins.

Chrissie, Martina and Graf, all dominated the regular tour, as well as the majors, and being #1.

That's what they all have over Serena.

And you can't use the argument, "how physical the tour is today" in Serena's defense, cause she doesn't play a lot of matches, relative to her contemporaries, through out her career anyway.

Of course Serena, has her own arguments, but certainly not those above.
Not that many would care, but Court's wins are as follows:

1961 - 80-5
1962 - 77-2
1963 - 86-6
1964 - 77-2
1965 - 106-8
1968 - 104-12
1969 - 96-5
1970 - 113-6
1971 - 64-4
1972 - 60-7
1973 - 101-5
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #35
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobito View Post
Not a calender year but from 1st August 2011 to 1st August 2012:

Julia Cohen 50-39
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #36
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

50-4 or 55-8 is much more impressive than 70 - 25 or 80-30
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #37
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post
Chrissie, Martina and Graf, all dominated the regular tour, as well as the majors, and being #1.

That's what they all have over Serena.

And you can't use the argument, "how physical the tour is today" in Serena's defense, cause she doesn't play a lot of matches, relative to her contemporaries, through out her career anyway.

Of course Serena, has her own arguments, but certainly not those above.
Starting in 1995 and 1996 Steffi provided the template on how to win multiple majors and play on a more limited schedule, she needed to do that to preserve her body. The amount of tournaments and matches she was playing in 1995/1996 is simply not comparable to her 1988/1989 schedule.

Venus and then Serena demonstrated their own version of this schedule-lite approach in their multiple slam winning years in the early 2000's.

So yes you can use the "how physical" the tour is today argument because that is exactly what happened, with Graf's injuries and change in approach being a case in point.

And you say Serena doesn't play much compared to her contemporaries. However the fact some of her contemporaries such as Hingis, Kim and Jankovic played more her than her actually proves how much more physical the tour is (and therefore the necessity of a streamlined schedule) because they burned out in one form or another. Oh, except they didn't even play more than her because Kim and Hingis are retired while Serena has more wins and still playing.
------
Also your point that historical analysis showing more tournaments reduces your chances to win slams is completely backwards.Historically the complete opposite is true. Look at the careers of Margaret Court, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert and Steffi Graf in the 1980's. Their most successful years were the years when they won the most matches. Margaret Court won over 110 matches in her 1970 Grand Slam year. Graf's 1989 where she played more matches than any other was her second most successful career season. Then things changed, as I pointed out above. QED.
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #38
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Not that many would care, but Court's wins are as follows:

1961 - 80-5
1962 - 77-2
1963 - 86-6
1964 - 77-2
1965 - 106-8
1968 - 104-12
1969 - 96-5
1970 - 113-6
1971 - 64-4
1972 - 60-7
1973 - 101-5
I thought about her, and sorry I didn't mention her.
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #39
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
Starting in 1995 and 1996 Steffi provided the template on how to win multiple majors and play on a more limited schedule, she needed to do that to preserve her body. The amount of tournaments and matches she was playing in 1995/1996 is simply not comparable to her 1988/1989 schedule.

Venus and then Serena demonstrated their own version of this schedule-lite approach in their multiple slam winning years in the early 2000's.

So yes you can use the "how physical" the tour is today argument because that is exactly what happened, with Graf's injuries and change in approach being a case in point.

And you say Serena doesn't play much compared to her contemporaries. However the fact some of her contemporaries such as Hingis, Kim and Jankovic played more her than her actually proves how much more physical the tour is (and therefore the necessity of a streamlined schedule) because they burned out in one form or another. Oh, except they didn't even play more than her because Kim and Hingis are retired while Serena has more wins and still playing.
------
Also your point that historical analysis showing more tournaments reduces your chances to win slams is completely backwards.Historically the complete opposite is true. Look at the careers of Margaret Court, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert and Steffi Graf in the 1980's. Their most successful years were the years when they won the most matches. Margaret Court won over 110 matches in her 1970 Grand Slam year. Graf's 1989 where she played more matches than any other was her second most successful career season. Then things changed, as I pointed out above. QED.
My correction for not elaborating.

The tour during Court, King and even Navratilova and Evert weren't as physical, deep and grueling as it is today. They all testify to that themselves, as you know.

The historical analysis is that since the late 1980's (as you mentioned), its been shown that playing 20+ tournament doesn't always translate into the equitable Grand Slam total (though many think it would), do to the more physical nature of the tour. Obviously Venus, Serena and Clijsters figured this one out.

And until things change (like the playing style, larger draws, bigger more powerful ladies, and more world travel), that'll probably remain the same.

I even read articles that extrapolated this trend from the 70's, early eighties (though you brought up a good argument to the contrary in some of your player examples).
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #40
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

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Originally Posted by bobito View Post
Not a calender year but from 1st August 2011 to 1st August 2012:

Julia Cohen 50-39
Step.

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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #41
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

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Lena D:

2008 56-17

2009 55-18
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #42
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

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Originally Posted by bobito View Post
Martina Hingis

1996: 51-17
1997: 76-5
1998: 67-13
1999: 71-13
2000: 78-10
2001: 60-15
'97 was amazing, and she had an injury that year from riding horse.
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #43
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Davenport

1996: 51-15
1997: 59-16
1998: 69-15
1999: 61-10
2000: 60-12
2001: 62-9
2004: 63-9
2005: 60-10
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Old Sep 6th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #44
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Maria's 51 wins after USO will be really sweet!
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #45
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Re: 50+ Win Seasons

Patricia Mayr-Achleitner

2008 Singles Record: 78-27

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