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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #46
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Re: Race and Media

Sure gal.
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #47
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Re: Race and Media

Why won't the controlled right wing media report this:






Well, now that the forum right wingers who love guns and hate government abuses have all the evidence they need to get that cop and his conspirators. When will you delusional right wingers go after them?
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #48
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Re: Race and Media

^do you ever post about tennis?
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #49
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Re: Race and Media

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Well, you must know that white supremacy is not something that was created by White Americans. The whole idea that white people are superior to all others morally, intellectually, aesthetically, etc. came from Europe itself, during the Enlightenment.

In re: the bolded, this is simply not true for all human beings. Yes, for most people, what you find most attractive is based on cultural ideals. You are attracted to what you are enculturated to believe is attractive. But how does this explain West African and Indian people who bleach their skin to look white, and black children in the United States who believe that blacks are uglier and more dangerous than whites at only 3-4 years old?



As a European yes, you may find Europeans more attractive because you see them most often. But you must understand that all things that have a cultural basis operate within sets of power relations. Thus, as a white, European person, your cultural ideals are expressed the loudest and transmitted to people all across the world, because white Europeans have the bulk of the wealth and power in the world. Most white people take this for granted, and assume that their own cultural dispositions are natural for all human beings, but this is not true. White people see themselves and like their own features because their beauty is reinforced everywhere (in the media, etc.), non-white people do not get the same reinforcement.


Again, I must point out that you are committing the "common sense" fallacy, based on your own life and experiences. The natural human biological and sexual instinct is to look for sexual partners that will diversify their gene pool, not look for people who look just like them. This is why all human cultures have the incest taboo and most cultures have historically practiced partner sharing across different groups, because it increases the diversity of the gene pool and offspring will have shared characteristics of multiple genetic clusters, which increases offspring's ability to adapt to different environmental stresses. Throughout history, people who look extremely different have migrated, had sex with eachother and produced offspring, despite their different backgrounds. It was not until European scientific racism (white supremacy) that humans began to see themselves in rigidly, racial terms, and assign characteristics to those races which affects how attracted you are to individuals of different backgrounds.
Actually, the origins are much older and they go way back to Ancient Greece. The Western Civilization, as we know it, is mostly grounded in Greek Mythology. The perception of beauty, proportion, human relations, ethics etc. This notion was later reinforced by Romans, and it just kept rolling till it reached its peak in Nazi Germany.* So, yeah, it had centuries to be firmly established, and at this point it's very systematic and strong. For some people who were raised in closed societies, it's very hard to recognize it (regardless whether they're victims of oppression or oppressors themselves). This, of course, does not mean they shouldn't be reeducated.
The reeducation process is going to be long and challenging, but it's well worth it.

*Just to make it clear, I am talking about the evolution of white supremacy in Europe, which later had spread elsewhere.

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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #50
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Re: Race and Media

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Actually, the origins are much older and they go way back to Ancient Greece. The Western Civilization, as we know it, is mostly grounded in Greek Mythology. The perception of beauty, proportion, human relations, ethics etc. This notion was later reinforced by Romans, and it just kept rolling till it reached its peak in Nazi Germany.* So, yeah, it had centuries to be firmly established, and at this point it's very systematic and strong. For some people who were raised in closed societies, it's very hard to recognize it (regardless whether they're victims of oppression or oppressors themselves). This, of course, does not mean they shouldn't be reeducated.
The reeducation process is going to be long and challenging, but it's well worth it.

*Just to make it clear, I am talking about the evolution of white supremacy in Europe, which later had spread elsewhere.
Well the Ancient Greeks didn't see themselves as "White". So the idea of "White Supremacy" as it's being talked about in this thread doesn't really go back to Ancient Greece so much as the idea of racial supremacy in general; which as you pointed out is a huge factor in Ancient Greek culture, most noticeably the Greek vs. Persian races.
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 08:49 PM   #51
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Re: Race and Media

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Well the Ancient Greeks didn't see themselves as "White". So the idea of "White Supremacy" as it's being talked about in this thread doesn't really go back to Ancient Greece so much as the idea of racial supremacy in general; which as you pointed out is a huge factor in Ancient Greek culture, most noticeably the Greek vs. Persian races.
You are right about that, I should have elaborated on how their art shows them as white and had established certain norms that are still dominant, etc. I'm just afraid this would drag us away from the subject which I think is very interesting and raises other questions about beauty norms today.
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #52
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Re: Race and Media

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You are right about that, I should have elaborated on how their art shows them as white and had established certain norms that are still dominant, etc. I'm just afraid this would drag us away from the subject which I think is very interesting and raises other questions about beauty norms today.
No problem, I'm glad you chimed in. But yeah Olorin is right, I was speaking directly to the scientific racism and white supremacy that propagated during the Enlightenment, became firmly entrenched during TransAtlantic Slavery/Colonialism/Imperialism, and still resonate globally today.
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #53
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Re: Race and Media

Hmm, I think the preference of light skin goes beyond the Enlightenment, or even Ancient Greece. There are too many strands of light skin preferences throughout history to attribute its existence to any one historical movement/event, although white superiority in its current incarnation is most strongly influenced by the Enlightenment/colonialism. But there has always been a history of it.

It all depends on which geographic region you look at. In India, the Indo-Aryan invasion pretty much established the superiority of the light skinned Aryans over the native dark-skinned Dravidians. Ditto, in China, the Chinese conquests of South-East Asian vassal states. Dark skin was also associated with hard labour in the fields, aka a lower social class.

If I wanted to get a little creative, I'd weave a narrative explaining this as a matter of circumstance. In prehistoric/historic times, people who lived in warmer climates tended to be smaller (Bergmann's rule), have darker skin (from the sun), and relied less on the development of technology for their survival. People in colder climates tended to be bigger, have lighter skin, and because of the harsher climates, required more technology and also a will for expansion to move into more arable land and better climates. When two civilisations were in conflict, the latter group likely has the advantage both in terms of physical size and technology, and this established cultural supremacy for the latter group. The distinction based on skin colour was collateral damage.

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Probably a good case study for this theory is the one example of indigenous white people suffering the same fate of discrimination. The native Ainu people of Japan (who look Caucasian) remain discriminated, even though most are effectively absorbed into the main population.
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #54
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Re: Race and Media

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Hmm, I think the preference of light skin goes beyond the Enlightenment, or even Ancient Greece. There are too many strands of light skin preferences throughout history to attribute its existence to any one historical movement/event, although white superiority in its current incarnation is most strongly influenced by the Enlightenment/colonialism. But there has always been a history of it.

It all depends on which geographic region you look at. In India, the Indo-Aryan invasion pretty much established the superiority of the light skinned Aryans over the native dark-skinned Dravidians. Ditto, in China, the Chinese conquests of South-East Asian vassal states. Dark skin was also associated with hard labour in the fields, aka a lower social class.

If I wanted to get a little creative, I'd weave a narrative explaining this as a matter of circumstance. In prehistoric/historic times, people who lived in warmer climates tended to be smaller (Bergmann's rule), have darker skin (from the sun), and relied less on the development of technology for their survival. People in colder climates tended to be bigger, have lighter skin, and because of the harsher climates, required more technology and also a will for expansion to move into more arable land and better climates. When two civilisations were in conflict, the latter group likely has the advantage both in terms of physical size and technology, and this established cultural supremacy for the latter group. The distinction based on skin colour was collateral damage.

_______

Probably a good case study for this theory is the one example of indigenous white people suffering the same fate of discrimination. The native Ainu people of Japan (who look Caucasian) remain discriminated, even though most are effectively absorbed into the main population.
You make valid points that are definitely true, vis-a-vis skin bleaching and South/Southeast Asian populations. I'm speaking primarily though to the experience of people of primarily West African descent and their engagement with white supremacy/colonialism, which is where European beauty ideals for blacks originated from.

And your creative example is not true though, from a historical or anthropological perspective. The burst in technology that occurred in the Upper Paleolithic was due to several factors, including exposure to/interbreeding with and intercultural exchange with Neanderthals, who were already producing Mousterian tools before homo sapiens (in the arid Levant ), and exposure to other non-homo sapiens human groups such as the Denisovans. These are more plausible explanations for the burst of human symbolic behavior in Europe, not simply the fact that they had to adapt independently to a cold climate. The archaeological record is extremely scarce in Africa primarily because of the tropical conditions that disrupt the process of fossilization, but we are finding more and more evidence of the African antecedents to the symbolic culture explosions of Paleolithic Europe every year. However, there is no correlation between climate and stages/processes of cultural development. Also, just FYI there's no such thing as cultural supremacy either, thats a very Western European, ethnocentric notion of cultural development you just posited there.
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