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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 04:59 AM   #31
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Re: Multi sports thread

You can always count on The Onion
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #32
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Bjarne Riis
Good old 'I have never tested positive' Magic 60 ...

But there may be a new Danish TdF winner. Speculation in Danish papers that Michael Rasmussen aka Kyllingen (The chicken) will be elevated from a 7th place finish to overall TdF winner ... Just a tiny caveat to that. Rasmussen himself was later in his career pulled out of TdF by .. I think he was with Rabobank at the time, because he couldn't account for his whereabouts ..

If I remember correct, he claimed he was in Italy training, while actually in Mexico doing a bit of (blood) training.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #33
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
(Probably) true. But in cycling there's a culture of, "so what?" The riders don't care. It's quite telling I think that none of the other riders were outraged by any of those dope offenders. There has never been any, "Oh fuck, if it wasn't for that cheat I would have won this or that race myself." Probably because everyone was (is?) doing the same thing. I imagine that if in tennis a multiple slam champion is exposed to be a PED offender that his or her main rivals would show anger because his/her titles could have been theirs. And if said players wouldn't be outraged it would tell me that tennis has a PED problem that goes far beyond that one player and that everyone accepts it as part of the game, just like is obviously the case in cycling. The attitude of the fans is different as well. If one or more of the big guns in tennis would get caught taking PED it would really have a negative impact on the popularity of the game I think. But in cycling fans don't seem to care when you consider that none of these scandals (which have been a big part of road cycling for as long as since the 1960's) have harmed it's popularity in any shape or form. On the contrary - it continues to grow. Credibility is very low on their list of priorities.
Exactly. When the drug problems in cycling came to light - it was just one after another. If you wanted to make a joke about PED - it was invariably cycling. You had to laugh (or cry) as rider after rider was exposed everty TDF. The general feeling was they are all at it. Most important was how it was exposed that It was systematic in the teams. And I don't believe anyone was robbed of anything because they just all seemed at it. There was no indignation about someone on PEDs. Just indignation from the teams about getting caught and in later years the fake leaving the rider on his own with a "We knew nothing about this - he's fired now".

And as a result - whatever they do to Lance Armstrong. Stripping him of his TDF titles - whatever that even means - I will always regard him as one of the greatest cyclists along with Indurain and the other multi TDF winners who I believe were all on PEDs.

Cycling and other sports are different in this regard.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 01:08 PM   #34
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Re: Multi sports thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisFan66 View Post
Good old 'I have never tested positive' Magic 60 ...

But there may be a new Danish TdF winner. Speculation in Danish papers that Michael Rasmussen aka Kyllingen (The chicken) will be elevated from a 7th place finish to overall TdF winner ... Just a tiny caveat to that. Rasmussen himself was later in his career pulled out of TdF by .. I think he was with Rabobank at the time, because he couldn't account for his whereabouts ..

If I remember correct, he claimed he was in Italy training, while actually in Mexico doing a bit of (blood) training.
As strange as it is Chicken has no evidence against him... He did have Lienders (wiggos new dco), and talk of Frieburg prooved unfounded so far iirc.

Wasn't he at home in Italy when he has said he would be at his sisters wedding in Mexico for two weeks (he came back a week early)?

Alex is serving a suspension for missing a test despite being at a meet in Germany getting tested, and all in time for not apearing at the olympics and despite procedural errors and 100% suport that he nothing more than disorganised in extream, while Yannia still struts her stuff with a raquet.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #35
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
Exactly. When the drug problems in cycling came to light - it was just one after another. If you wanted to make a joke about PED - it was invariably cycling. You had to laugh (or cry) as rider after rider was exposed everty TDF. The general feeling was they are all at it. Most important was how it was exposed that It was systematic in the teams. And I don't believe anyone was robbed of anything because they just all seemed at it. There was no indignation about someone on PEDs. Just indignation from the teams about getting caught and in later years the fake leaving the rider on his own with a "We knew nothing about this - he's fired now".

And as a result - whatever they do to Lance Armstrong. Stripping him of his TDF titles - whatever that even means - I will always regard him as one of the greatest cyclists along with Indurain and the other multi TDF winners who I believe were all on PEDs.

Cycling and other sports are different in this regard.
Statistically they fail less tests per test carried out. Cycling was/is plagued for sure, but despite using more detectable drugs like EPO. Realistically Steroids are extreamly hard to detect after week of use... Which is why OOCT is crucial. Most Athletes caught are via non testing though. As for systematic team doping, don't forget BALCO, Chinese Olympic Team, and DDR teams. The Rowing team Coaches ofcourse now coach Team GB.

It would be extremely nieve to think other sports are cleaner, or less systematic.

Win at all costs is culpable.

Lance going down was crucial, because it wasn't just the doping, it was the sociopathic manipulation, culussion, corruption (covered up tests) and the message his false proclemations of super human inocence sent to both the other Athletes and the unsuspecting and gulible public. Hunting down and vilifying ex team mates and athletes that tested positive, and worse the vilification of clean athletes and personnel that dared suggest or who actually witnessed the reality of his situation.

Greatest cyclist... Please...
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #36
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
Exactly. When the drug problems in cycling came to light - it was just one after another. If you wanted to make a joke about PED - it was invariably cycling. You had to laugh (or cry) as rider after rider was exposed everty TDF. The general feeling was they are all at it. Most important was how it was exposed that It was systematic in the teams. And I don't believe anyone was robbed of anything because they just all seemed at it. There was no indignation about someone on PEDs. Just indignation from the teams about getting caught and in later years the fake leaving the rider on his own with a "We knew nothing about this - he's fired now".

And as a result - whatever they do to Lance Armstrong. Stripping him of his TDF titles - whatever that even means - I will always regard him as one of the greatest cyclists along with Indurain and the other multi TDF winners who I believe were all on PEDs.

Cycling and other sports are different in this regard.
Indurain and Bjarne Riis won their TdF victories before the UCI limited the legal hematorcrit level to 50. Hematocrit level is volume of red blood cells in the blood and is normally around 40% for women, 45% for men.

Bjarne Riis was called 'Magic 60' for a reason Indurain was another extreme case. His resting pulse was sub 30 bpm. Naturally part of this being his physical shape. Another being his blood was so thick, it slowed his heart rate. It's sort of common knowledge, Indurain, during nights, had to get up with few hours intervals to exercise. If he didn't, he would simply die

Your argument is : Others did the same, so it was a level playing field, why these are great champions. NO, imho. They won, because they were willing to take the biggest risks (pump their blood up to be as thick as possibly, but still just barely flowing).

Needless to say, I don't know the reason for USADA to go after Armstrong but his 'whiter than white' attitude, when others were caught alone, could be enough reason to take him down. Armstrong is, imho, the sport version of Bernie Madoff.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #37
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by TennisFan66 View Post
Needless to say, I don't know the reason for USADA to go after Armstrong but his 'whiter than white' attitude, when others were caught alone, could be enough reason to take him down. Armstrong is, imho, the sport version of Bernie Madoff.
USADA are just doing their job. They have the testimonies and the evidence so it would be strange if they didn't go after him. We are talking fraud, conspiracy, trafficking, witness intimidation, etc. not just doping. Further, they weren't just going after LA, the case also involved his (still active) team manager Bruyneel (team RSNT), doctors (both now banned for life as would be any athlete contacting them), and the still active riders, and ex team mates (retired), ex team mates now managers, and team staff that gave testimony, and whom are all expected to be given suspensions as well. That's LA 2x Doctor, 1x Manager, and at least 13 others.

Allegedly

RE HC: According to testimony EPO use can be masked with the aid of altitude tents... (I bet Muttonchops is glad he showed off his personal tent to the world).

RE HC2: Interestingly there are some families being studied in northern europe that have extraordinarily high natural HC levels (iirc 60%+), and it's possible to get a TUE to exceed 50%. IIRC the 50% rule was replaced. Obviously exercise should lower your HC which is why topping up was so effective.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #38
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by Burisleif View Post
Statistically they fail less tests per test carried out. Cycling was/is plagued for sure, but despite using more detectable drugs like EPO. Realistically Steroids are extreamly hard to detect after week of use... Which is why OOCT is crucial. Most Athletes caught are via non testing though. As for systematic team doping, don't forget BALCO, Chinese Olympic Team, and DDR teams. The Rowing team Coaches ofcourse now coach Team GB.

It would be extremely nieve to think other sports are cleaner, or less systematic.

Win at all costs is culpable.

Lance going down was crucial, because it wasn't just the doping, it was the sociopathic manipulation, culussion, corruption (covered up tests) and the message his false proclemations of super human inocence sent to both the other Athletes and the unsuspecting and gulible public. Hunting down and vilifying ex team mates and athletes that tested positive, and worse the vilification of clean athletes and personnel that dared suggest or who actually witnessed the reality of his situation.

Greatest cyclist... Please...
Whatever. Unless you dismiss the lot - I think it will in general be seen as hollow just stripping Armstrong of his titles and it will come to be meaningless. And please put your glasses on and actually read my posts. I did not say he was the greates cyclist but one of the greatest cyclist.

As for being naive to think it isn't rife in other sports. Well no. They were catching cyclists left, right and centre to the extent that the TDF became the butt of jokes on PEDs. That was not happening in other sports. Common sense and statistics dictates that the numbers caught reflect how rife it is in each sport.

If you want to believe cycling and other sports are the same with PED problems - that's up to you. That's not how it's seen by most people.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #39
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Whatever. Unless you dismiss the lot - I think it will in general be seen as hollow just stripping Armstrong of his titles and it will come to be meaningless. And please put your glasses on and actually read my posts. I did not say he was the greates cyclist but one of the greatest cyclist.

As for being naive to think it isn't rife in other sports. Well no. They were catching cyclists left, right and centre to the extent that the TDF became the butt of jokes on PEDs. That was not happening in other sports. Common sense and statistics dictates that the numbers caught reflect how rife it is in each sport.

If you want to believe cycling and other sports are the same with PED problems - that's up to you. That's not how it's seen by most people.
BALCO.
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Old Aug 28th, 2012, 03:43 AM   #40
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Re: Multi sports thread

There's live tennis still going on at the US Open but no channel in the US is airing it. Espn 2 stopped coverage after Fed's match and Tennis Channel airing their recap show. It's not that I want to see these matches, it's just the principle of it.
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Old Aug 28th, 2012, 06:54 AM   #41
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Re: Multi sports thread

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There's live tennis still going on at the US Open but no channel in the US is airing it. Espn 2 stopped coverage after Fed's match and Tennis Channel airing their recap show. It's not that I want to see these matches, it's just the principle of it.
Weren't they just showing Kim and Roger? After their matches ended why would they show any other matches?
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Old Aug 28th, 2012, 07:09 AM   #42
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Weren't they just showing Kim and Roger? After their matches ended why would they show any other matches?
I believe they've said they would cover the tournament til the end of play for a day.
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Old Aug 28th, 2012, 07:17 AM   #43
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Re: Multi sports thread

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I believe they've said they would cover the tournament til the end of play for a day.
Did they cut off any matches when they ended their coverage? That I find annoying, particularly when there are multiple ESPN channels.
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Old Aug 28th, 2012, 09:18 AM   #44
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Did they cut off any matches when they ended their coverage? That I find annoying, particularly when there are multiple ESPN channels.
No, I don't think they did.
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Old Aug 30th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #45
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Re: Multi sports thread

Champions League, Group D : Real Madrid, Ajax, Man City and Dortmund .... That is some group.
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