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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 11:45 AM   #16
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
It's nearly impossible that he's innocent when you think about it, unless he's truly a freak of nature. Many of his biggest rivals and contemporaries have been exposed as drug cheats. It's very unlikely that he could beat a peleton of riders who are up to their necks in PED seven times in the toughest road race of them all if he was clean himself.

I think that riders who are active in that sport really face a dilemma. Either take PED which allows you to compete in a more or less even playing field, but run the risk of getting caught and losing it all (including your dignity). Or keep a clear conscience and don't take PED in which case you're only take part to make up the numbers - if you make it to the professional ranks at all, that is.
For years I've been ambivalent about Lance. The idealistic side of me didn't want to believe that a man who had been handed a virtual death sentence by the cancer doctors - yet came out alive on the other side - would disgrace this new lease on life by cheating and filling his body with illegal drugs. The cynical/realistic side of me believed the same as you, that it wasn't possible for a clean man to beat all the dopers seven years in a row. The idealistic side of me is losing the battle now.
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #17
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Re: Multi sports thread

Here's a list about Armstrong's runnerups:

http://www.theradsport.com/the-dopin...nce-victories/
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #18
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Re: Multi sports thread

That says it all really...
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #19
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Here's a list about Armstrong's runnerups:

http://www.theradsport.com/the-dopin...nce-victories/
Yeah. Wonder who'll be give the victories ...
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #20
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Yeah. Wonder who'll be give the victories ...
They shouldn't give them to anyone because if you take away Armstrong and the other dope offenders (that have been caught) out of the race it affects everyone else's results as well. Whoever is number two in a race with Armstrong wouldn't necessarily be number one without him because you'd have a different race with different tactics. If it happened in tennis you can't declare the runner-up the winner either because it might have been whoever ended up losing in the semis or quarters to the dope offender that might have ended up winning.
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #21
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Re: Multi sports thread

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They shouldn't give them to anyone because if you take away Armstrong and the other dope offenders (that have been caught) out of the race it affects everyone else's results as well. Whoever is number two in a race with Armstrong wouldn't necessarily be number one without him because you'd have a different race with different tactics. If it happened in tennis you can't declare the runner-up the winner either because it might have been whoever ended up losing in the semis or quarters to the dope offender that might have ended up winning.
While I personally do not disagree with you, there is precedence of elevating the RUP to victory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Landis_doping_case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...France_winners
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 06:09 PM   #22
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Re: Multi sports thread

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I can think of one Dane, who's very happy he's not American
who?
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #23
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Re: Multi sports thread

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The entire history of road cycling has been tainted to such a degree by PED that it's impossible to take the sport seriously.
It's no different in any sport to be fair.
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #24
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Sad thing with the Lance case. He maintains his innocence but his giving up the fight suggests otherwise. Of course it's not impossible that he's giving up the fight for the reasons he's stating - that it's too much of a burden for his family - but it doesn't fit with his 'warrior' image. That, coupled with the horde of people saying he's guilty, makes it hard to believe in his innocence anymore despite all his negative tests.
He did fail tests though... Right off the back of the Festina affair, when everyone else seemed to back off, he took his opportunity, failed a test and was let off. The UCI playing a role in this conspiracy is part of the current case, and with luck it will escalate to wide reform in many sports.

I'm waiting for mutton chops to make a statement about his best buddy and training inspiration/partner. Maybe this time it might be wise Not to elevate the texan as a method of denigrating others.
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Old Aug 24th, 2012, 08:22 PM   #25
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Re: Multi sports thread

Worth a listen.

David Walsh pretty much sums up how many (non casual) cycling fans have always felt about Wonderboy.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 03:18 AM   #26
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Re: Multi sports thread

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It's no different in any sport to be fair.
(Probably) true. But in cycling there's a culture of, "so what?" The riders don't care. It's quite telling I think that none of the other riders were outraged by any of those dope offenders. There has never been any, "Oh fuck, if it wasn't for that cheat I would have won this or that race myself." Probably because everyone was (is?) doing the same thing. I imagine that if in tennis a multiple slam champion is exposed to be a PED offender that his or her main rivals would show anger because his/her titles could have been theirs. And if said players wouldn't be outraged it would tell me that tennis has a PED problem that goes far beyond that one player and that everyone accepts it as part of the game, just like is obviously the case in cycling. The attitude of the fans is different as well. If one or more of the big guns in tennis would get caught taking PED it would really have a negative impact on the popularity of the game I think. But in cycling fans don't seem to care when you consider that none of these scandals (which have been a big part of road cycling for as long as since the 1960's) have harmed it's popularity in any shape or form. On the contrary - it continues to grow. Credibility is very low on their list of priorities.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 03:25 AM   #27
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Worth a listen.

David Walsh pretty much sums up how many (non casual) cycling fans have always felt about Wonderboy.
Thanks. I'm a casual fan at best (and even that is stretching it), but I have always felt about him like that. But it would be unfair of me to single hm out because I felt (and feel) the same way about everyone else involved in that sport, not just Lance Armstrong. I guess that he at least has some redeeming qualities considering his cancer foundation which has done some good work. That's no excuse though, but he's probably no worse than anyone else in road cycling.
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 03:32 AM   #28
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Re: Multi sports thread

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who?
Bjarne Riis
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 04:23 AM   #29
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
(Probably) true. But in cycling there's a culture of, "so what?" The riders don't care. It's quite telling I think that none of the other riders were outraged by any of those dope offenders. There has never been any, "Oh fuck, if it wasn't for that cheat I would have won this or that race myself." Probably because everyone was (is?) doing the same thing. I imagine that if in tennis a multiple slam champion is exposed to be a PED offender that his or her main rivals would show anger because his/her titles could have been theirs. And if said players wouldn't be outraged it would tell me that tennis has a PED problem that goes far beyond that one player and that everyone accepts it as part of the game, just like is obviously the case in cycling. The attitude of the fans is different as well. If one or more of the big guns in tennis would get caught taking PED it would really have a negative impact on the popularity of the game I think. But in cycling fans don't seem to care when you consider that none of these scandals (which have been a big part of road cycling for as long as since the 1960's) have harmed it's popularity in any shape or form. On the contrary - it continues to grow. Credibility is very low on their list of priorities.
I think there are plenty of clean cyclist that feel that way. Many off whom stated as much and were literally hounded out of the sport by Wonderboy. There is a difficult balance between protecting your career be it clean or not, and being outspoken, especially if as it appears that the system that is supposed to protect you is in fact colluding to write the results that suit them best financially. We now know that federations and governing bodies have acted to sweep "negative results" under the carpet for reasons of both National interest, and preservation of sponsorship and revenue. People still watch Athletics despite its crown jewel event having no credibility. Media fluff about new credibility at the Dollarympics was laughable and swallowed whole by the public. I personally see situations where National scientific prowess and or laxness of testing compliance is more relevant to a medal count than ability. What chance do small nations have? Where is the spirit of competition and inclusion? It's big money, big stakes, and politics. When a government pushes for medals and bases policy on National Prowess I smell collusion. As for tennis I don't know what state its in, but we all see differences in power from player to player, and yes you can argue technique etc, but when the experts suggest that 85% of testing needs to be out of competition, and its most prominent athletes are vocally opposed to such testing, and the Federation fails to test each athletes OC often enough to either meat that standard or frequently enough for missing the tests to ever result in action, then you have to question intent?
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Old Aug 25th, 2012, 04:54 AM   #30
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Re: Multi sports thread

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Bjarne Riis
I don't know, it could be many...

If he did mean Riis then I would say the comparison is yet another (all to frequent recently), poorly thought out, and carelessly flippant remark.

On one hand we have a rider that went from day racer, to GT champion, and protective patron of rider rights in what is known to be the most highly fuelled period of cycling, to retiree, to protective team owner, to confessor (yes after the statute of limitation but voluntarily), to team manager that opened his doors to criticism and the then most critical and respected scientist to come and clean up, and test all you want at my expense so we can get this issue resolved once and for all.

On the other hand you have a rider that went from day racer to opportunist that seizes a sport in shock, litigates, denies, vilifies those that speak, ruins careers, colludes with federations, dominates with a team that he oversees the fortification of, uses his domination to appropriate funds, power, and political ambition, intimidates witnesses, and even when the ride is over uses his final outbursts to preserve doubt and loyalty among his many vulnerable followers, in an attempt to preserve a lie that pays his way.

It's not the doping and the national body that is the difference. Its the gravity of the conspiracy that has been addressed, which relates to the severity of the penalty each has or will receive. Hopefully there will be orange jump suits ahead, removal of the puppet at the federation, and the original puppet master really controls the federation, and the the removal of the brain behind the victories, and the doctors who pumped the fuel will finally be excluded from all practice, and their dossiers used to illustrate the breadth of sports and athletes involved in doping.

Allegedly He might be reading because he dose a lot of that...

Did you read that a few paralympians are going down following surveillance of Wonderboy's doctor? I was shocked but unsurprised.
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