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Old Jun 4th, 2012, 12:19 PM   #31
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Re: WW II thread

My cat is named Simo, after Simo Hayha. (My kids picked the name).

He is only death to bugs, though.
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Old Jun 4th, 2012, 01:47 PM   #32
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Re: WW II thread

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My cat is named Simo, after Simo Hayha. (My kids picked the name).

He is only death to bugs, though.
Your kids know Simo Hayha
I didn't know he is so famous.

So how many bugs did your cat kill ? Was it soviet bugs ?
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Old Jun 4th, 2012, 02:12 PM   #33
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Re: WW II thread

I've lost count. He got a couple of roaches last night and was very pleased with himself.

He keeps the house pretty much roach and rodent free, though a few always try to come in when the heat starts.
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Old Jun 5th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #34
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Re: WW II thread

There is a Finnish movie about the Winter War that is a classic IMO. It's a cross between a war movie and a love traingle between a Finnish soldier, a Russian soldier, and a Lapp woman.

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anyway, thus, Germans during the WWII never went hungry until almost the end..the result of their country's brutal policy..you can understand the Red Army soldiers getting mad when they saw how German people lived.
I'm not sure it mattered how the Germans lived-the Russians were out for revenge-period.

Speaking of revenge-the Allies deliberately starved millions of Germans to death after the end of World War I. That's gotten little press attention, but it no doubt fed into the bitterness and thrist for revenge the Germans demonstrated in World War II.

We often reap what we sow.

To me the Two World Wars are just one war in two parts-a sort of 30 years war. They destroyed European power, possibly forever, and gave Europe a profund distaste for conflict. The consequences weren't all bad though: the liberation from colonial rule may have been delayed for 50 years or more without the wars.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:11 AM   #35
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Re: WW II thread

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There is a Finnish movie about the Winter War that is a classic IMO. It's a cross between a war movie and a love traingle between a Finnish soldier, a Russian soldier, and a Lapp woman.



I'm not sure it mattered how the Germans lived-the Russians were out for revenge-period.

Speaking of revenge-the Allies deliberately starved millions of Germans to death after the end of World War I. That's gotten little press attention, but it no doubt fed into the bitterness and thrist for revenge the Germans demonstrated in World War II.

We often reap what we sow.

To me the Two World Wars are just one war in two parts-a sort of 30 years war. They destroyed European power, possibly forever, and gave Europe a profund distaste for conflict. The consequences weren't all bad though: the liberation from colonial rule may have been delayed for 50 years or more without the wars.
I thought it was during the war. Blockade. The bitterness and thirst for revenge? I don't think it has much to do with starvation. Germans didn't know what was going on, their leaders deliberately withheld the info at the front, they didn't know it was so bad. Remember, they didn't experience the war on their home soil. So they thought they could've won, thus their hatred on the 'traitors' and the unfair treatment (in their view) at Versailles. And THAT'S what Hitler kept pounding on..

And THAT'S behind the infamous 'Ultimatum'(UNconditional surrender) at the Teheran Conference. The Allies didn't want to make the same mistake. Hell, some wanted the Germans stripped of their industrial capacity and leave to their miserable fate. Eye for an eye, exactly what the Germans intended for the conquered nation's people during the WWII Luckily for them, some wanted stronger Europe (against USSR of course), and thus argued for a strong Germany, such as George Kennan.

Can we discuss the Spanish Civil War here too? If one argue that WWI and WWII are essentially the same, surely that event can fit in?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:37 AM   #36
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Re: WW II thread

Spanish civil war surely fits indeed. Germany sent the Condor Legion to fight with nationalist Spain, and they tested new tactics like carpet bombing for example. Italy and Portugal also sent volunteers to help nationalists, on the other hand Soviet Union provided material for Republican Spain. So it's closely related to WW2.

Today is 6th of June, important day concerning WW2 ! With the allied landing in Normandy of 1944.

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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 05:22 PM   #37
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Re: WW II thread

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I thought it was during the war. Blockade. The bitterness and thirst for revenge? I don't think it has much to do with starvation. Germans didn't know what was going on, their leaders deliberately withheld the info at the front, they didn't know it was so bad. Remember, they didn't experience the war on their home soil. So they thought they could've won, thus their hatred on the 'traitors' and the unfair treatment (in their view) at Versailles. And THAT'S what Hitler kept pounding on..

And THAT'S behind the infamous 'Ultimatum'(UNconditional surrender) at the Teheran Conference. The Allies didn't want to make the same mistake. Hell, some wanted the Germans stripped of their industrial capacity and leave to their miserable fate. Eye for an eye, exactly what the Germans intended for the conquered nation's people during the WWII Luckily for them, some wanted stronger Europe (against USSR of course), and thus argued for a strong Germany, such as George Kennan.

Can we discuss the Spanish Civil War here too? If one argue that WWI and WWII are essentially the same, surely that event can fit in?
if you want to know what happened in Germany AFTER the war;



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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #38
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Re: WW II thread

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Originally Posted by Remix13 View Post
Spanish civil war surely fits indeed. Germany sent the Condor Legion to fight with nationalist Spain, and they tested new tactics like carpet bombing for example. Italy and Portugal also sent volunteers to help nationalists, on the other hand Soviet Union provided material for Republican Spain. So it's closely related to WW2.

Today is 6th of June, important day concerning WW2 ! With the allied landing in Normandy of 1944.

I can't understand people saying that GER/ITA/PORTUGAL and USSR, their contribution to the civil war was about the same I mean, ITA even sent their TROOPS

Spanish Civil was is such an interesting topic, since Spain was even more radical than France; anarchism, anti-clericalism, etc...

I've read a lot concerning the 2nd republic part(1931-6), Hugh Thomas, Anthony Beevor, Paul Preston, Stanley Payne..quite a polarizing topic, even in academic circles..Payne is more to the right, he focuses on the failure of the Left, and he recently panned Preston's recent book 'Holocaust' as an ultimate failure

For example, on CEDA (the biggest party of the Right, and which the gov leaders tried to block access to the gov, kinda reminds me of Nazi before the takeover), Payne commends their 'restraint', while Preston castigates the party leaders' colluding with the coup d'etat and their cynicism and wile.

For the plight of the peasants(probably the worst in all Europe, the landowners practically saw them as an inferior species :faecpalm: and tried REALLY hard to block reform and to starve them), while Preston spares a lot of space in his book, Payne says dryly 'their treatment was rather harsh' That's basically all he says on that topic, he just generally relies on the overall economic statistics (well both author have respective merits I guess)

Of their 'bete noire'? Payne admits that his is Azana, the Republican(not exactly a Lefty, maybe middle-Left in political spectrum) leader during the Republic, and Preston's is of course Franco. He says that Franco DELIBERATELY delayed winning the war to exterminate the Republican forces fully. He even sacrificed the Italian troops for that end, the war of brutal attrition
Preston dissects the Rebels, Catholic leaders, landowners, the whole Right's bestial mentality (they blatantly aimed at the 'extermination' of the Left and their ideas, so I don't think the term Holocaust is that misleading..while some book reviewers and especially Payne castigates on the choice of the title )



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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #39
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Re: WW II thread

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I thought it was during the war. Blockade. The bitterness and thirst for revenge? I don't think it has much to do with starvation.
The blockade went on during and after the war.

Link to Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany


Clearly I was way off on the death count, but as you can read from the article the blockade continued AFTER peace was declared in an effort to literally bring Germany to the peace table and accept whatever humiliating terms the Allies (In particular the French) chose to dicate. Wilson warned them about being too harsh and was roundly ignored.

Of course the French recalled their own humilation in 1870..., so one can understrand their position to some extent.

Quote:
Germans didn't know what was going on, their leaders deliberately withheld the info at the front, they didn't know it was so bad. Remember, they didn't experience the war on their home soil. So they thought they could've won, thus their hatred on the 'traitors' and the unfair treatment (in their view) at Versailles. And THAT'S what Hitler kept pounding on..
All true I agree, but the starvation of unarmed civilians after peace had been declared added a lot of bitterness, how could it not? And Versailles totally laid the seeds of the next war by utterly crushing Germany and laying total blame for the war upon it. Germans surely expected bad terms as the losers, but to have an enemy starve civilians in such a fashion added a lot of salt to the wounds, as did having to admit 100% of the blame for the conflict. As Wilson predicted it had the opppsite effect the Allies hoped for-it just took Germany 15 years to recover.

In much the same way German bombing of civilians in England in the Blitz (and Allied bombing of Germany) had the exact opposite effect of what was intended. Rather than break morale it stiffened it.

Anyhow I'm not trying to defend Germany here. My larger point is death and violence usually begets death and violence. As An American myself I'm both amused and horrified that we still don't seem to get that Arabs had/have at least some gievence against us because of our support for Israel. To me 911 was entirely predicatable-not so much the scale of the attack as the conflist itself.

Wish I knew more about the Spanish Civil War. Did Franco continue to go after Communists after it was over-or did her let sleeping dogs lie?

Franco's decision not to attack Gilbralter really cost Hitler IMO. Has Germany controlled the Meditteranean North Africa may have easily fallen.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #40
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Re: WW II thread



The book that everybody agrees as brilliant. Has a deep understanding of Spain, this book a is historical work on the background to the Spanish Civil War. Some even praise his prose style



A classic, pretty long. Thomas was a member of the Thatcher gov, I think.

The West did NOTHING during the Civil War. declared neutral but in effect was obviously indirectly helping the Rebels. British in particular. The spat between Churchill and Eleanor Roosevelt on that topic is a famous episode. The French was as timid as a maid in that era practically a lackey of British, always looked to them for guidance And FDR was as usual, extremely prudent (maybe too much so ) on the European question until 1941.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 06:04 PM   #41
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Re: WW II thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
The blockade went on during and after the war.

Link to Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany


Clearly I was way off on the death count, but as you can read from the article the blockade continued AFTER peace was declared in an effort to literally bring Germany to the peace table and accept whatever humiliating terms the Allies (In particular the French) chose to dicate. Wilson warned them about being too harsh and was roundly ignored.

Of course the French recalled their own humilation in 1870..., so one can understrand their position to some extent.



All true I agree, but the starvation of unarmed civilians after peace had been declared added a lot of bitterness, how could it not? And Versailles totally laid the seeds of the next war by utterly crushing Germany and laying total blame for the war upon it. Germans surely expected bad terms as the losers, but to have an enemy starve civilians in such a fashion added a lot of salt to the wounds, as did having to admit 100% of the blame for the conflict. As Wilson predicted it had the opppsite effect the Allies hoped for-it just took Germany 15 years to recover.

In much the same way German bombing of civilians in England in the Blitz (and Allied bombing of Germany) had the exact opposite effect of what was intended. Rather than break morale it stiffened it.

Anyhow I'm not trying to defend Germany here. My larger point is death and violence usually begets death and violence. As An American myself I'm both amused and horrified that we still don't seem to get that Arabs had/have at least some gievence against us because of our support for Israel. To me 911 was entirely predicatable-not so much the scale of the attack as the conflist itself.

Wish I knew more about the Spanish Civil War. Did Franco continue to go after Communists after it was over-or did her let sleeping dogs lie?

Franco's decision not to attack Gilbralter really cost Hitler IMO. Has Germany controlled the Meditteranean North Africa may have easily fallen.
What do you think about the Unconditional surrender expounded by FDR? That's also laying the TOTAL blame against Germany. 'Tactical' bombing by the British and Americans was also a blatant example of utterly crushing Germany. (What's ironic is that it didn't stop Speer maintaining the arms production rate. So much for disrupting it, as was the Allies' aim..I dunno why Speer wasn't executed he was SO crucial to the war effort)

Anyway, of Franco, their policy was utter extermination of the Lefty idea. Thus indiscriminate killing in the Rebel zone. Of course the 'work' continued after the war, such as labor camp, etc. But don't know much on that timeframe, after the Civil War, it's on Preston's 'Holocaust's later portion I think, which I haven't read yet, and one should also consult the bio of Franco, which I haven't read either Both Preston and Payne published it.

And yeah, Franco and Hitler haggled over the term for the entrance of Spain in the War. But Franco wanted extremely favorite terms for Spain, so Hitler backed off.( Franco really benefited DURING the CW also, ITA/GER practically sent their support for free, while the Republic had to drain their gold reserve to pay USSR) Payne has a whole book on this topic, didn't read that yet.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #42
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Re: WW II thread

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I thought it was during the war. Blockade. The bitterness and thirst for revenge? I don't think it has much to do with starvation. Germans didn't know what was going on, their leaders deliberately withheld the info at the front, they didn't know it was so bad. Remember, they didn't experience the war on their home soil. So they thought they could've won, thus their hatred on the 'traitors' and the unfair treatment (in their view) at Versailles. And THAT'S what Hitler kept pounding on...
Prediction of the century, made @ Versailles in June 1919 by French Marshal Ferdinand Foch, who made a comeback from like 2 sets and 2 breaks down called The Miracle of the Marne in 1914. HE had more claim on having the French Open named for him than that biplane pilot Roland Garros. (Hell, we needed a cartoon character to take down Baron Von Richthoven).

[Among those who commented was Marshal Ferdinand Foch who predicted with eerie precision that: "This is not Peace. It is an Armistice for twenty years."] (Sept 11, 1939 being almost exactly 20 years later). BTW, the cartoon character "hero of WW I" was a compatriot of the original Peppermint Patty.

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Old Jun 7th, 2012, 03:30 AM   #43
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Re: WW II thread

Never believe what those damn sons of convicts said. It was a good Canadian what got him

And of course the Flying Circus was never a match for the Black Flight. Nobody was.


But that's another war.
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Old Jun 7th, 2012, 06:10 AM   #44
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Re: WW II thread

may god bless those brave souls who fought in that war on either side.
may the bureaucrats who instigated the conflict from their cushy sofas burn in hell.


canadians landing in juno beach 68 years ago
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Old Jun 7th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #45
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Re: WW II thread

Juno Beach is the sector of Courseulles sur Mer, it's about 10 minutes from where my parents live (which is more Sword Beach). There is a museum (well, there are tons of WW2 museums in Normandy) and remains of German bunkers in Courseulles and Graye sur Mer (there is a good spot to fish seabass in front of the bunker, there are no more war boats, but fishing boats now), a Canadian cemetery in not far (in the village of Revier, you can also fish trouts in the river there).
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