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Old Nov 20th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #151
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Re: WW II thread

Churchill was not a likely successor to Chamberlain, according to the Establishment;

Tories, Chamberlain, The Times, the King, ALL preferred Halifax.
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Old Nov 20th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #152
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Re: WW II thread

Chamberlain in June 1939

'I never accept the view that war is inevitable.'

'Some day the Czechs will see that what we did was to save them for a happier future. Sacrificing them had at last opened the way to that general appeasement which alone can save the world from chaos'

He had a supreme conviction of his judgement and was also QUITE vindictive. He stubbornly ignored all those pleas from EVERY sector that Churchill be included in the cabinet during 1939.
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Old Nov 20th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #153
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Re: WW II thread

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Originally Posted by fantic View Post
Chamberlain in June 1939

'I never accept the view that war is inevitable.'

'Some day the Czehcs will see that what we did was to save them for a happier future. Sacrificing them had at last opened the way to that general appeasement which alone can save the world from chaos'

He had a supreme conviction of his judgement and was also QUITE vindictive. He stubbornly ignored all those pleas from EVERY sector that Churchill be included in the cabinet during 1939.
I broadly agree with your assessment of the appeasers. However it's important to consider their motives, it was only a generation after the horror and waste of the First World War, and their was an overwhelming urge not to revisit those horrors. This was tragically misguided of course, with consequences exactly what they most wanted to avoid.

What of America's role between 1939 and its entry into the war Post-Pearl Harbor? If the appeasers in Britain warrant condemnation then so do the Isolationists in America, and even more so those who were Anti-British in America at that time.
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Old Nov 20th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #154
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Re: WW II thread

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
I broadly agree with your assessment of the appeasers. However it's important to consider their motives, it was only a generation after the horror and waste of the First World War, and their was an overwhelming urge not to revisit those horrors. This was tragically misguided of course, with consequences exactly what they most wanted to avoid.

What of America's role between 1939 and its entry into the war Post-Pearl Harbor? If the appeasers in Britain warrant condemnation then so do the Isolationists in America, and even more so those who were Anti-British in America at that time.
I just trotted out the facts (their remarks)
But yes, of course they're discredited now. And yes, pacifism was very popular, irrespective of ideology. Tories, the Left, all embraced it. Exactly same as in US. Conservatives to Progressives, all abhorred another involvement. Thus Churchill and FDR were faced with a monumental task. Public Opinion is not always right (Hitler as you all know was incredibly popular in Germany)

Of the bolded part, you mean Joeseph Kennedy, then ambassador to England He was an anti-Semite and predicted England's demise Dunno why FDR appointed him there (FDR before that appointed him as the 1st Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission when he amassed his great wealth due to speculating )

So LBJ made fun of Joe Kennedy frequently.
And Joe's devoted son, Bobby Kennedy never forgave LBJ for that.
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Old Nov 20th, 2012, 11:58 PM   #155
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Re: WW II thread

When Soviet head of Foreign Affairs Litvinov proposed an alliance between them, GBR and FRA, even the English military chiefs advocated it lest USSR join hands with GER.

Chamberlain suppressed this information.

-----------

Colin Coote (The Times reporter) on Chamberlain

'he fundamentally wants Nazi ideas to dominate Europe, because of his fantastic dislike of Soviet Russia'
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 12:19 AM   #156
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Re: WW II thread

before this Chamberlain offered Hitler African colonies.

Not only Britain's. French, Portuguese...without the consultation of respective countries

He really was prepared to give ANYTHING to preserve peace.
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 12:39 AM   #157
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Re: WW II thread

GBR was not helpful at all when Poland asked for a loan to buy arms.

At the same time, Treasury officials were offering the Germans widespread economic advantages in return for an Anglo-German non-aggression pact.

I thought Chamberlain knew about Polish-German non aggression pact in 1934 or something

Of course Poland got their comeuppance for helping in dismantling CZE earlier with Hungary..
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 03:35 AM   #158
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Re: WW II thread

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according to Liddell Hart, military historian and at that time military correspondent of The Times(he resigned after GBR's Polish guarantee),

Halifax believed that Poland was of more military value than Russia.

A lot of people underestimated the Red Army. Remember, in the 1920s they'd been fought to a standstill by the Poles, they're surrogate side had just lost in the Spanish Civil War and Stalin's purge had decimated their USSR's military.

Poland had done a masterful job of inflating it's military capabilities and, also remember nobody really thought all those masses of tanks the Germans and Soviets had were really going to make a difference.

In retrospect, it seems obvious Poland was doomed. But it's also true that Poland's defensive plan played right into the German's hands, and nobody expected the USSR to stab them in the back.
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 06:46 AM   #159
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Re: WW II thread

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A lot of people underestimated the Red Army. Remember, in the 1920s they'd been fought to a standstill by the Poles, they're surrogate side had just lost in the Spanish Civil War and Stalin's purge had decimated their USSR's military.

Poland had done a masterful job of inflating it's military capabilities and, also remember nobody really thought all those masses of tanks the Germans and Soviets had were really going to make a difference.

In retrospect, it seems obvious Poland was doomed. But it's also true that Poland's defensive plan played right into the German's hands, and nobody expected the USSR to stab them in the back.
You're right about Poland, but that was a long time ago. (Pilduski was then POL's leader?) And Spanish Republic was rather lonely, can't really compare USSR's aid to ITA and GER's massive ones. And we all know GBR blatantly favored Franco, such as Churchill, sea lords..
Did Europe know about the massive military purge then? 1937 or something, right?

Well, CZE was definitely better than POL in terms of military strength, and moreover POL didn't have natural fortress to fall back to. And cavalry charge against machine guns was already proven futile in the American Civil War.

And Chamberlain was not even enthusiastic about providing military funds for POL..make up your mind, Neville (well, I guess he believed Hitler to the end He liked Germany best, at least more than USSR or USA )

And about stabbing in the back, why not? History proves it, POL was stubbornly refusing the triple alliance, Chamberlain was not really going for it either, what alternative did Stalin have? Stalin was a tough, tough negotiator too, he bought time (against GER's invasion) But in the end he also was naive about Hitler, he didn't think GER will invade so soon, so was supplying them with natural resources right into the date of Barbarossa
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 08:03 AM   #160
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Re: WW II thread

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Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
I broadly agree with your assessment of the appeasers. However it's important to consider their motives, it was only a generation after the horror and waste of the First World War, and their was an overwhelming urge not to revisit those horrors. This was tragically misguided of course, with consequences exactly what they most wanted to avoid.

What of America's role between 1939 and its entry into the war Post-Pearl Harbor? If the appeasers in Britain warrant condemnation then so do the Isolationists in America, and even more so those who were Anti-British in America at that time.
Of course, there is a crucial difference between GBR and USA. Both people wanted peace. But the leaders were different. FDR was for intervention but had to weigh against the formidable wall of isolationism.

MacDonald, Baldwin, Chamberlain, they didn't care at all. Especially Neville, he ACTIVELY pursued appeasement(whereas Baldwin pursued passively;he wasn't even interested in Foreign Relations), EVEN after Hitler violated the Munich treaty and annexed CZE.

You can't really compare Chamberlain and FDR The role of the former was devastating, to say the least He did EVERYTHING wrong; abandoned CZE, spurred FDR's offer, also spurred the golden chance of the Triple Alliance..

If he was solely for peace, he should've just kept quiet when Hitler attacked Poland. But he foolishly bound GBR to POL and declared war upon Germany. Remember, Hitler didn't really want to attack GBR.

Either way, Chamberlain was probably the #2 leader after Hitler that helped WWII happen.
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 09:25 AM   #161
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Re: WW II thread

I've mentioned POL's obduracy.

How about BEL? Since they declared strict neutrality FRA couldn't even coordinate defense. But how the hell will neutrality work when GER are certain to invade again? GER wouldn't be stupid to march to the Maginot line head-on, would they? Even Churchill knew in a flash that Ardennes was a weak spot.

To think of it, FRA in WWII are the most pitiful of all, all that money pouring on constructing defensive position, for what And their generals, spearheaded by Gamelin, also must be the worst of all time, Gamelin was even scared of GER in 1936 I seriously wonder if he was a spy for Germany
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 03:18 PM   #162
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Re: WW II thread

Stalin's purges were well-known in the West, and the Soviets were concerned enough about the performance of their equipment in Spain to begin working on new planes and tanks that were to prove their worth (unlike the Italians, who largely concluded that their biplanes and light tanks were adequate to the task at hand, with disastrous results for their troops).

Poland lacked the mountains, but had a network of rivers and swampy ground that could have turned the campaign into a much more prolonged one--indeed, the Allied joint command in the West suggested that they pull back and concentrate on defending a central core of Poland. But the Polish high command decided to try and defend all of Poland, implementing a complex two-stage plan that called for an initial defense at the frontier followed by a retreat to a more centralized position. As I said earlier, this played right into the German's hands, because their motorized units and air superiority enabled them to cut the planned lines of retreat (especially early in the war, when the mere sight of a formation of bombers was enough to sow panic in the ranks).

Where the Poles had rivers and/or prepared positions like the Battle of Warsaw, they put up a strong resistance and were able to inflict heavy losses on the Germans. Of course, even if they had pulled back and fought a smarter campaign, they would have needed the Western Powers to get off their asses and do something. Still, IF the Poles had fought and smarter campaign, and IF the French had been psychologically capable of launching an offensive against the thin screen the Germans had in the West, the British faith in the Polish might not seem so misplaced today.
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 03:44 PM   #163
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Re: WW II thread

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Originally Posted by miffedmax View Post
Stalin's purges were well-known in the West, and the Soviets were concerned enough about the performance of their equipment in Spain to begin working on new planes and tanks that were to prove their worth (unlike the Italians, who largely concluded that their biplanes and light tanks were adequate to the task at hand, with disastrous results for their troops).

Poland lacked the mountains, but had a network of rivers and swampy ground that could have turned the campaign into a much more prolonged one--indeed, the Allied joint command in the West suggested that they pull back and concentrate on defending a central core of Poland. But the Polish high command decided to try and defend all of Poland, implementing a complex two-stage plan that called for an initial defense at the frontier followed by a retreat to a more centralized position. As I said earlier, this played right into the German's hands, because their motorized units and air superiority enabled them to cut the planned lines of retreat (especially early in the war, when the mere sight of a formation of bombers was enough to sow panic in the ranks).

Where the Poles had rivers and/or prepared positions like the Battle of Warsaw, they put up a strong resistance and were able to inflict heavy losses on the Germans. Of course, even if they had pulled back and fought a smarter campaign, they would have needed the Western Powers to get off their asses and do something. Still, IF the Poles had fought and smarter campaign, and IF the French had been psychologically capable of launching an offensive against the thin screen the Germans had in the West, the British faith in the Polish might not seem so misplaced today.
Westwall was't that formidable when the war started?
You're generous. Psychologically capable I'd say downright cowardice. I mean, boasting one of the best armies in the world and doing NOTHING, quite unheard of Gamelin should've been court-martialed. It was just a blatant dereliction of his duty. I mean, politicians were ready to fight even in 1936. ONLY Gamelin's pessimism prevented them to give the order to march.

Maybe he read novels too much, like H.G.Wells' ('Bombers will eventually pull through')

I thought CZE had better army than POL. Was POL THAT formidable? Well if Germany started later than October the mud might've hampered their advance..
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 03:49 PM   #164
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Re: WW II thread

Another issue; bombers. Was it effective?

Pin point bombing was impossible(thus blatant targetting at the civilians like GBR)
the rate of being shot down was appallingly high (practically a suicide mission)
GER's arms production didn't slow down (how did GER manage that? Did they locate all those plants underground)
Like in Italy, so much waste in bombing but didn't inflict damage that much, in fact HELPED GER defend better due to tons of debris to hide behind

Bombing JPN wasn't enough either so USA planned to invade the mainland.
So had to use the atomic bomb(NAVY thought blockading would've accomplished the mission soon, so they were against using it)
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Old Nov 21st, 2012, 05:40 PM   #165
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Re: WW II thread

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Originally Posted by miffedmax View Post

Stalin's purges were well-known in the West, and the Soviets were concerned enough about the performance of their equipment in Spain to begin working on new planes and tanks that were to prove their worth (unlike the Italians, who largely concluded that their biplanes and light tanks were adequate to the task at hand, with disastrous results for their troops).
Il Duce was a lousy leader of a country @ war. His only success was one of his sons marrying Sophia Loren's sister, and in turn fathering La Bella Alessandra.

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I've mentioned POL's obduracy.

How about BEL? Since they declared strict neutrality FRA couldn't even coordinate defense. But how the hell will neutrality work when GER are certain to invade again? GER wouldn't be stupid to march to the Maginot line head-on, would they? Even Churchill knew in a flash that Ardennes was a weak spot.
When BEL wouldn't accept the Maginot Line being extended thru their territory (also with LUX, if that was a gap) the Froggies should have instead extended it on their own side of the FRA-LUX-BEL border.
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