For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Nov 26th, 2014, 04:39 PM   #1
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,526
pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute
For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/ny...ules.html?_r=0
For New York City Officers, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

There are some New York City police officers who can count on one hand the number of times they have drawn a gun, even over decades on the force.

Then there are the officers who patrol the city’s 334 public housing complexes. There are about 2,350 uniformed officers in the department’s Housing Bureau, about 1,825 of whom are rank-and-file police officers.

To some of them, drawing their guns, even with no present threat, is routine, a practice borne of habit or some internal gauge of an encounter that might go bad. And their bosses, unlike some police commanders around the country, permit it. So, in doing vertical patrols, the roof-to-ground sweeps through buildings, unholstering can be second nature.

It apparently was for a young officer on patrol Thursday night in East New York, Brooklyn. In a darkened hallway in the Louis H. Pink Houses, the officer’s precaution turned fatal for an innocent young man.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

Late Thursday night in this dim stairwell of a Brooklyn housing project, Officer Peter Liang accidentally killed Akai Gurley, 28.
Officer’s Errant Shot Kills Unarmed Brooklyn Man NOV. 21, 2014

City officials said it was an accident: Officer Peter Liang, 27, was walking through a hallway door at 2724 Linden Boulevard with his gun drawn when he fired a single bullet that traveled down a flight of stairs and struck 28-year-old Akai Gurley in the chest, killing him.

Mr. Gurley was unarmed and innocent.

As the circumstances emerged, the notion of police officers patrolling inside public housing complexes with guns unholstered struck some as troubling, or even reckless. But Police Commissioner William J. Bratton said that officers were relied upon to use discretion, and that there was no “specific prohibition” against drawing a gun. In fact, he acknowledged, it was not uncommon for housing officers to do so, with good reason.

“Every time they open that rooftop door,” he said of their vertical patrols, “there is a risk that they are facing.”

Even as overall crime continues falling citywide — homicides by 6 percent and robberies by 14 percent — crime has been more persistent in housing projects and, in some cases, has risen, leading residents and local leaders to demand more police action. At the Pink Houses, plagued by gang violence, two people have been killed this year, and shootings have spiked; there was a shooting in the lobby of a neighboring building on Nov. 15.

Too much gun-drawing by officers, though, presents other risks: An officer can lose control, be disarmed or unnecessarily escalate to deadly force. That can lead to “tragedy for everybody,” said Vincent E. Henry, a former city police officer who retired in 2002 as a Police Academy commander.

“No cop goes out in the morning and says, ‘Hey, I’m going to go kill someone in the stairway,’ ” he said. “Every cop you meet could give you a litany of examples of times they wish they had drawn their gun, and didn’t, and times when they did draw their gun and later learned it was unnecessary.”

To civilians, the vision of armed officers ready to fire can create “unnecessary anxiety,” according to the Los Angeles Police Department’s policy on drawing weapons, particularly when the encounters fall outside an emergency. Departments in Las Vegas, Denver and elsewhere have wrestled with the risks — including accidental discharge — of too quickly drawing a gun.
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story

Every year in New York, the independent agency that investigates allegations of police abuse receives hundreds of complaints from people shaken when officers point guns at them. Workers who maintain public housing buildings — repairing the broken lights that make the hallways dark — sometimes worry as much about armed officers as criminals.

What makes one officer comfortable without a gun in hand is sometimes a matter of experience.

“It is an individual judgment,” said Robert J. Louden, who retired from the New York police force as a lieutenant and is now a professor at Georgian Court University in New Jersey.

But there is no fail-safe way — despite lectures, tactical drills and hours of target practice — to “develop cops who will use their discretion well,” Mr. Henry said. Often, younger officers learn from older ones.

Precisely why, and how, Officer Liang fired his 9-millimeter gun is under investigation. The officer has not provided his account to an investigator, which is typical after a shooting in which the case may be presented to a grand jury.

One possibility is that he tried to turn the knob of the door to the stairwell with his left hand, which also clutched his gun.

But whether he clumsily lost his grip or squeezed the trigger in fright are open questions. Trying to do several things with one hand is more worrisome than drawing the gun to begin with, Mr. Louden said.


“Why does a cop not carry an umbrella?” he said. “Because even though he might get wet, and needs an umbrella, he needs his hands to do other things.”

Officers facing “a civilian complaint” over drawing a gun simply need a “justifiable” explanation for doing so, said Edward Mamet, who retired after 40 years on the city’s police force. But the “big thing,” he said, is the need to keep one’s finger off the trigger.

Those on the other side of a gun barrel see matters less simply. Though they face risks similar to those faced by officers, residents of public housing in central Brooklyn have experienced some of the highest rates of police stop-and-frisk activity.

Mechanics who work nights fixing rooftop elevators in public housing have had officers on vertical patrols aim guns at them, said Gregory Floyd, the president of Teamsters Local 237, which represents about 8,000 such workers.

“They are fearful of one day being mistaken for someone other than an elevator mechanic,” Mr. Floyd said of his members.

In recent times, the Civilian Complaint Review Board has received more than 200 complaints each year from people who said they had faced a gun pointed at them by an officer. From 2009 to 2013, such complaints have made up about 6 percent of all allegations about the wrongful use of force by officers. In a vast majority of the gun-pointing cases, the officers were exonerated.

In the aftermath of Mr. Gurley’s death, several law enforcement analysts said, the city must amend its policies for officers drawing guns during vertical patrols and revamp its training.

“It unequivocally has to,” said Eugene J. O’Donnell, a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Rookie officers might be paired with “mentors” in doing vertical patrols, he said, and learn that having a gun out is a “momentous step.”

“What the department needs to do is come up with an approach that allows cops to protect themselves,” he said, “while simultaneously guarding against ever having a repeat of this kind of ending.”
__________________
“Nonviolence means avoiding not only physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.” – MLK
pov is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Nov 26th, 2014, 04:41 PM   #2
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,526
pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

I have no issue with cops drawing or even pointing their guns. But for sure, as mentioned, their finger should not be on the trigger or even inside the trigger guard.
__________________
“Nonviolence means avoiding not only physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.” – MLK
pov is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 05:16 PM   #3
country flag cozy411
Senior Member
 
cozy411's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,407
cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future cozy411 has a brilliant future
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Nothing will ever change until both sides acknowledge their faults and work together. Discretion is just too subjective when dealing with potentially ending human lives and I'm not in favor of that. There definitely needs to be rules in place that are agreed by both sides.
cozy411 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 05:33 PM   #4
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,526
pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by cozy411 View Post
Nothing will ever change until both sides acknowledge their faults and work together. Discretion is just too subjective when dealing with potentially ending human lives and I'm not in favor of that. There definitely needs to be rules in place that are agreed by both sides.
How so? Gun drawn with finger extended outside the guard is not subjective. And there is no practical way to cover all possible situations in which a cop "should" have her/his weapon out.


As I see it where there needs to be a change in rules is on in what situations they pull the trigger.
__________________
“Nonviolence means avoiding not only physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.” – MLK
pov is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 05:48 PM   #5
country flag tennisbum79
Senior Member
 
tennisbum79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Planet Venus
Posts: 33,042
tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by cozy411 View Post
Nothing will ever change until both sides acknowledge their faults and work together. Discretion is just too subjective when dealing with potentially ending human lives and I'm not in favor of that. There definitely needs to be rules in place that are agreed by both sides.
You know what, you will be right if the discretion was exercise uniformly across racial lines.
Anecdotal evidence show when it comes to confrontation with blacks, the police does not exercise that discretion.
Also, black police officer, yes there are some in US police forces.
You rarely hear that a black police officer has killed an unarmed person, black or white, as a result of confrontation.

I guaranteed you if it were the other way around, something would have been done long time ago.
One thing expert would have suggested would be to look at the recruitment screening.
Can potential candidate being considered for police force handle stress situation?
Are they able to de-escalate a tense situation by talking to the suspect?

Some would have gone as far as asserting back officers propensity to pull the trigger was proof that they are unqualified to be on the police force, but were only recruited to meet some Affirmative Action quota or guidelines.
__________________
__________________________________
Venus Williams Grand Slam VII
Serena Williams Grand Slam XVIII

Nadia Petrova Grand Slam Hope Is Fading
Updated: Sep 07. 2014
Next Update Date: Post 2015 AO
Rest in peace, Elena Baltacha.
tennisbum79 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #6
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,526
pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Y
You rarely hear that a black police officer has killed an unarmed person, black or white, as a result of confrontation.
True. However rarely hear doesn't mean rarely happens.

You also rarely hear when a white police officer has shot an unarmed white adult. And if you doubt that - can you, without searching, state about how many times it happened this year?

And:

Quote:
About 1 in 4 officers were members of a racial or ethnic minority in 2007
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71

Since in 2010 the US population was 75% white, that accurately represents the overall population.
__________________
“Nonviolence means avoiding not only physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.” – MLK
pov is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 06:36 PM   #7
country flag tennisbum79
Senior Member
 
tennisbum79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Planet Venus
Posts: 33,042
tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by pov View Post
True. However rarely hear doesn't mean rarely happens.

You also rarely hear when a white police officer has shot an unarmed white adult. And if you doubt that - can you, without searching, state about how many times it happened this year?

And:

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71

Since in 2010 the US population was 75% white, that accurately represents the overall population.
We would have heard it by now.

The same people who bring up black-on-black stats as a defense of white officers killing unarmed black men would have jumped at the chance of bringing it up; arguing black officers kill unarmed black men too, not just white officers.
__________________
__________________________________
Venus Williams Grand Slam VII
Serena Williams Grand Slam XVIII

Nadia Petrova Grand Slam Hope Is Fading
Updated: Sep 07. 2014
Next Update Date: Post 2015 AO
Rest in peace, Elena Baltacha.
tennisbum79 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #8
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,526
pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute pov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
We would have heard it by now.

The same people who bring up black-on-black stats as a defense of white officers killing unarmed black men would have jumped at the chance of bringing it up; arguing black officers kill unarmed black men too, not just white officers.
No. Sorry that's not how it works. Obviously - since the happened and you don't seem to know about them. To be clear - I don't see that as your fault, it's just the way the media works. But if you really think that black cops don't sometimes shoot unarmed people that would be your own biases.
__________________
“Nonviolence means avoiding not only physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him.” – MLK
pov is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 06:52 PM   #9
country flag tennisbum79
Senior Member
 
tennisbum79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Planet Venus
Posts: 33,042
tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute tennisbum79 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by pov View Post
No. Sorry that's not how it works. Obviously - since the happened and you don't seem to know about them. To be clear - I don't see that as your fault, it's just the way the media works. But if you really think that black cops don't sometimes shoot unarmed people that would be your own biases.
What exactly are you asking me to prove?
That Black officers do not kill unarmed black men at the alarming rate white do officer do?
__________________
__________________________________
Venus Williams Grand Slam VII
Serena Williams Grand Slam XVIII

Nadia Petrova Grand Slam Hope Is Fading
Updated: Sep 07. 2014
Next Update Date: Post 2015 AO
Rest in peace, Elena Baltacha.
tennisbum79 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 27th, 2014, 02:26 AM   #10
country flag Williamsser
Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,560
Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute Williamsser has a reputation beyond repute
Re: For New York City Cops, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules

As New York City Considers Criminal Justice Reforms, Police Unions Stand in the Way

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entr...s_in_the_way_p

Local police union president Patrick Lynch expressed a few words of regret, too. But rather than focusing on remorse for Gurley, Lynch decried “those who make their careers criticizing police” and said that stairwells like the one Gurley was killed in are "fertile ground for violent crime."

Progressive Democrats have heralded the ascendance of New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio as a sign of a new era in liberal urban policy, especially with the help of unions. But one union is blocking key progressive reforms in the city’s troubled criminal justice system: the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association (PBA), representing more than 30,000 officers at the New York Police Department.

When de Blasio hired former Mayor Rudy Giuliani’s top cop Bill Bratton to run the department, it assuaged fears among the police rank-and-file that the new mayor’s perceived mushy liberalism would increase crime by ending the city’s controversial stop-and-frisk tactic. But the alliance was brief. PBA President Patrick Lynch has taken de Blasio to task on more mundane matters like disability benefits, but also decried the move to give a summons of marijuana possession instead of making an arrest as “surrender.”

Nothing has ruffled Lynch’s feathers like the death of black Staten Island man Eric Garner, who was killed by a cop using a chokehold to subdue him during an investigation of claims that Garner may have been selling individual cigarettes, or “loosies.” The death has been widely seen as the consequence of over-zealous “quality of life” policing of non-white communities. The United Federation of Teachers (UFT), the city’s main teachers union, marched in solidarity with Rev. Al Sharpton over the incident—infuriating Lynch and PBA supporters.

City Council is now moving to outlaw the kind of maneuver that killed Garner. The PBA lashed back, calling such a safeguard a “negative anti-police message” and the product of an “out of control City Council.”
Williamsser is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios