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Old Dec 18th, 2012, 12:12 AM   #4921
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
It's actually not a bad idea at all--IN THEORY.The only problem was that Chrissie-fan was a little open-ended in starting the thread,so trolls took his invitation as license to go there,and even right here in Caro's primary thread,to post condescending,barely-polite-sounding words about all of the numerous deficiencies they saw in Caroline's game.After a while,it got tiresome for some of the fans here who had read hateful comments in GM and didn't wanna welcome bashers who put forth a thin film of pretense at being respectful.

There were posts with phrases like,'Caro might become a relevant player again if she...',and 'Even though she's not an elite player anymore...',blah,blah,blah.It was painfully obvious that a few vergologos were taking advantage of Chrissie Fan's sincere attempt at decency,and it created an unpleasant atmosphere in this thread until they were banished.
Yes, it was basically a difference of opinion between those that thought that only Caro fans should post here, that everyone including haters should be allowed to post here as long as they keep it civil, and those that were ok with everyone including neutrals but excluding haters. I was in favor of the last option, but since I often take a long break from GM I perhaps gave some a bit too much slack because I wasn't as familiar with their posting history as others here.

Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now.
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Old Dec 18th, 2012, 12:41 AM   #4922
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
It's actually not a bad idea at all--IN THEORY.The only problem was that Chrissie-fan was a little open-ended in starting the thread,so trolls took his invitation as license to go there,and even right here in Caro's primary thread,to post condescending,barely-polite-sounding words about all of the numerous deficiencies they saw in Caroline's game.After a while,it got tiresome for some of the fans here who had read hateful comments in GM and didn't wanna welcome bashers who put forth a thin film of pretense at being respectful.

There were posts with phrases like,'Caro might become a relevant player again if she...',and 'Even though she's not an elite player anymore...',blah,blah,blah.It was painfully obvious that a few vergologos were taking advantage of Chrissie Fan's sincere attempt at decency,and it created an unpleasant atmosphere in this thread until they were banished.
Ok. Thanks for the explanations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Yes. It all seems pretty random to me. Perhaps it also depends on which mod gets to deal with a reported post as well. But at a forum as active as TF the mods have a subforum invisible to regular members where they discuss the goings on of the forum. But to be fair to them, I suppose they have to find a balance between doing "the right thing" and allowing their membership to have "a good time", and bitching is very popular, especially at GM. Having said that, it's also likely that it holds back potentially far more valuable members from joining TF.
Well, they certainly have to find some balance. However, I don't think they're wanting to allow their membership to have "a good time". More likely, they have to find a balance between legitimate and honest criticisms and disrespectful comments. Some comments are worded in a disrespectful way but remain legitimates and useful to the discussion. Some are just hainous or trolling. I guess that some mods have a better judgment than others to distinguish between them.

I fully agree with the last sentence. Allowing trolling and hateful posters must repel a lot of valuable members. They should be careful about it.

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Old Dec 18th, 2012, 11:48 AM   #4923
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I see some plsyers tweeting about heading to Australia. Only a few days until qualies.
Caroline is playing in tough fields before the AO.
I still think her best chance at her 1st major is hardcourt, and especially after her last 3 majors, its very important she gets to Melbourne healthy & in good form.
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Old Dec 18th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #4924
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

2012 was a strange year because Caroline went into the AO with a bad wrist, Wimbledon with a new temporary coach & different strings, and injured right before the USO while going for 5 New Havens in a row.
She also had a fall during the Copenhagen final. A lot of little things went wrong.
But there were still several bad losses besides the ones she wasnt 100%.
This is a big year coming up, because careers are short, and we've seen its hard to drop back, like Jankovic or Ivanovic, and then get all the way back
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 05:10 AM   #4925
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
2012 was a strange year because Caroline went into the AO with a bad wrist, Wimbledon with a new temporary coach & different strings, and injured right before the USO while going for 5 New Havens in a row.
She also had a fall during the Copenhagen final. A lot of little things went wrong.
But there were still several bad losses besides the ones she wasnt 100%.
This is a big year coming up, because careers are short, and we've seen its hard to drop back, like Jankovic or Ivanovic, and then get all the way back
The biggest mistakes:

she is not focussed 100% in tennis. To much off court, to much cheering Rory...no 100% tennis. She has to change this. When she didn´t change she has no chance to go back to the top.
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #4926
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

With regard to some comments above,those 2 players who dropped off were never capable of a long stint at #1 like Caroline had;a very brief stretch was all they ever would've been able to manage,therefore it's no surprise that they dropped off.However,it is,indeed,difficult to regain that peak once it's slipped from your grasp,as even some legends have struggled to return to the top ranking at times
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #4927
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
With regard to some comments above,those 2 players who dropped off were never capable of a long stint at #1 like Caroline had;a very brief stretch was all they ever would've been able to manage,therefore it's no surprise that they dropped off.However,it is,indeed,difficult to regain that peak once it's slipped from your grasp,as even some legends have struggled to return to the top ranking at times
Unless you've won a slam having the number one ranking is a hot potato though. Once Caroline got there everyone focussed more on what she hadn't yet achieved than on how well she had done to get there. Some even called her as "the worst #1 in history," which is nonsense of course because the fact alone that she could hold on to it for 67 weeks with everyone bitching about it behind her back and refusing to give her any credit for it means that she did very well as number one. But that Caroline will be in that position again in the forseeable future is only possible in theory since the top three are so far ahead of the rest of the field at the moment.
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 10:23 AM   #4928
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Unless you've won a slam having the number one ranking is a hot potato though. Once Caroline got there everyone focussed more on what she hadn't yet achieved than on how well she had done to get there. Some even called her as "the worst #1 in history," which is nonsense of course because the fact alone that she could hold on to it for 67 weeks with everyone bitching about it behind her back and refusing to give her any credit for it means that she did very well as number one. But that Caroline will be in that position again in the forseeable future is only possible in theory since the top three are so far ahead of the rest of the field at the moment.
Very true. #1 is a great achievement, and people start looking at a young player as a potential great.
When she reached USO final 2009, then reached #1 and got to the 2010 YEC final, thats when she won PoY and people were calling the top young players Generation Caro.

Some people think the loss to Li with a match point for her 2nd slam final was a turning point.
But the reality is that she had great results after that, which solidified her rank, and she was holding 9 titles and #1 by a margin of 3000 points.

Then came bad slam losses to Dani & Domi. BUT she wasnt as good on those surfaces as hardcourt, so the next 2 majors should have been the key.
Losing to Serena in 2011 USO SF was okay, but her game was starting to unravel. Lack of consistency, no more titles. Then had a bad wrist right before 2012 AO, started very slow against Kim, and couldnt finish off set 2 to get to one set all.

I still think her year has to revolve around being at her best for AO & USO, then going for mandatories, Premiers.
Whether she wins 2 titles in a year or 6, she needs to get back to being in hardcourt slam semis & finals, until she finally breaks thru
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #4929
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Because one major makes her a Hall of Fame player, and takes any pressure of "she cant do it" away.
But her level of play, week in & week out in 2012, isnt high enough to win a major.
She needs the level she had at 2010 YEC & 2011 IW, among others
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #4930
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Because one major makes her a Hall of Fame player, and takes any pressure of "she cant do it" away.
But her level of play, week in & week out in 2012, isnt high enough to win a major.
She needs the level she had at 2010 YEC & 2011 IW, among others
Yes, if she ever manages to win a major hers will be a HOF career. It's the only piece of the puzzle that's still missing. But the odds on her doing that have gone down considerably since Serena and Maria are back at their best and the other important players from her age group have improved a lot since Caroline was at her best. She has no control over everyone else's form, but if she gets back to her best she'll at least be in a better position to take advantage of an opportunuty if it should present itself.
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 12:41 PM   #4931
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I think returning to her best form is what matters. If she can play the AO & USO the same way she played most hardcourt tournaments from Rogers Cup 2010 - thru IW 2011, there will be plenty of opportunities in the next several years.

Serena is in her 30's. I think after her, its a very close group, that Vika leads now, but that can change from year to year.
Kerber was playing Vika even at the YEC, so was Sam & Maria in NYC.

If Caro can get back into that group, she's still very young by slam winning age; this era.
Only Petra & Vika have won a major of any player under 25, so she has years ahead.
Has to get back to that level of tennis
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #4932
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Unless you've won a slam having the number one ranking is a hot potato though.
Tennis fans are weird in that aspect.

Kimi was in top 3 for the WDC for most of the season without having won a single race. In theory, a driver could win the WDC without winning a single race. I've never read a F1 comment, that Kimi didn't deserved to be near the top.

In football, a club can win the league, even when losing to those finishing 2, 3 and 4. That clubs supporters would still order the open top bus and celebrate in the streets of that city.

Chelsea has displayed some of the most cowardly and defensive football ever played, yet their supporters are not bothered and celebrates the smart tactic.

I could continue with a lot of other sports too, but my point should be made.

The one stand-alone sport is tennis. If you do not play an extreme high risk style, with all guns blazing and every ball do-or-die, you're a fokking pusher and deserves to be run over by a bus. And only a win at the 4 * 2 weeks a year, where there is a slam, counts. Everything else is irrelevant.
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #4933
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Tennis fans are weird in that aspect.

Kimi was in top 3 for the WDC for most of the season without having won a single race. In theory, a driver could win the WDC without winning a single race. I've never read a F1 comment, that Kimi didn't deserved to be near the top.

In football, a club can win the league, even when losing to those finishing 2, 3 and 4. That clubs supporters would still order the open top bus and celebrate in the streets of that city.

Chelsea has displayed some of the most cowardly and defensive football ever played, yet their supporters are not bothered and celebrates the smart tactic.

I could continue with a lot of other sports too, but my point should be made.

The one stand-alone sport is tennis. If you do not play an extreme high risk style, with all guns blazing and every ball do-or-die, you're a fokking pusher and deserves to be run over by a bus. And only a win at the 4 * 2 weeks a year, where there is a slam, counts. Everything else is irrelevant.
Your comment about Chelsea leads me to believe that you are hardly in a minority in your low opinion of their style of play,and I'll venture a guess that legends of the sport and expert commentators also rank them amongst the weakest champions in recent memory.

I don't go to blogs or fan forums for sports on which I'm fairly knowledgeable,so that's why I can't tell you how fans behave in those spots,but aye CAN tell you that tennis fans aren't totally unique as you thought.Even amongst NFL,NBA and NHL followers who conduct themselves in a mature,respectful way(distinguishing themselves clearly from the Caro-bashing inbreds at TF),there's a sort of smirk that comes across people's faces whenever certain teams,who consistently implode in the playoffs,race out to the top W/L record in the regular season.They are often viewed as soft and lacking the mental toughness to succeed in the later playoff rounds.....until they prove otherwise.

I'm merely speculating here,but I've had a chance to observe this 'unworthy #1' phenomenon,firsthand as a fan,3 times in the WTA(for the record,I don't recall JJ getting as much heat,and I suspect that was partly due to her numerous wins over each WS).The first was with Ana who,in retrospect,is an embarrassment,on SO many levels,to anyone affiliated with her...'nuff said.Then,with sweet troubled Dinara,I understood why there were so many skeptics(though I hoped,in vain,for Dinarik to shut them up).The most damning argument against her was the way she slipped into panic mode on court,often leaving her unable to execute even a puffball 1st serve.

As for Caroline,the criticism was far less justified,but I think it would have been relatively mild if she had had more wins over legends on her resume'.There was a perception amongst less-rabid detractors(i.e.,those who spoke in a civil manner) that Caroline's rankings rise came at a time when no other elite players were playing near their best to challenge her....that she succeeded in a sort of vacuum of excellence where no one else rose to fill it.We'll never know,of course,but I think that,if Caro had had at least 3 wins over Henin,each WS,and Clijsters,the perception of Caro as being sub-Elite would've been highly diminished.There still would've been hateful bashers at TF due to her style of play,but no one intelligent takes those morons seriously
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #4934
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by TennisFan66 View Post
Tennis fans are weird in that aspect.

Kimi was in top 3 for the WDC for most of the season without having won a single race. In theory, a driver could win the WDC without winning a single race. I've never read a F1 comment, that Kimi didn't deserved to be near the top.

In football, a club can win the league, even when losing to those finishing 2, 3 and 4. That clubs supporters would still order the open top bus and celebrate in the streets of that city.

Chelsea has displayed some of the most cowardly and defensive football ever played, yet their supporters are not bothered and celebrates the smart tactic.

I could continue with a lot of other sports too, but my point should be made.

The one stand-alone sport is tennis. If you do not play an extreme high risk style, with all guns blazing and every ball do-or-die, you're a fokking pusher and deserves to be run over by a bus. And only a win at the 4 * 2 weeks a year, where there is a slam, counts. Everything else is irrelevant.
The greatest players are measured by number of slams they won. Its not the only standard, but its what the greatest players point for.
If Caroline goes a full career without ever winning one of the 4 majors, then something is missing, usually its the serve.

The pusher thing is just GM drival. If Caroline beat Li, then Kim at the 2011 AO (due to Li not playing well at match point, then Kim not playing a strong final) she would have been considered a superstar, without being any better than she actually was then.

There's 4 a year. A normal career, there's a good 10 year window. Its not asking something incredible for an excellent player who is making 10s of millions to win one
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 05:05 AM   #4935
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

To touch on that last point a bit,it's pure nonsense to suggest that Caro feels she needs to win a Slam only because the fans and media are pressuring her.Any competitive person with a champion's spirit would wanna reach the pinnacle in his/her sport...and Caro certainly has that winner's desire
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