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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 06:57 PM   #3331
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

These stats are how often Caro makes it to the final of Wta tournaments. The 1st # is how many titles won out of tournaments played, the 2nd # is how many finals made out of tournaments played. The 3rd # is how many premier or greater titles won out of premier or greater tournaments played, the 4th # is how many premier or greater finals made out of premier or greater tournaments played.


2008: 3/23 (13%), 4/23 (17%); 1/16 (6%), 1/16 (6%)
2009: 3/26 (12%), 8/26 (31%); 2/19 (11%), 5/19 (26%)
2010: 6/22 (27%), 8/22 (36%); 4/20 (20%), 6/20 (30%)
2011: 6/22 (27%), 8/22 (36%); 5/20 (25%), 7/20 (35%)
2012: 0/15 (0%), 1/15 (7%); 0/14 (0%), 0/14 (0%)


2010 Copenhagen through 2011 Indian Wells: 7/13 (54%), 9/13 (69%); 6/12 (50%), 8/12 (67%)
2010 Copenhagen through 2011 Wimbledon: 10/22 (45%), 13/22 (59%); 8/20 (40%), 11/20 (55%)
2011 Bastad through 2012 Montreal: 1/23 (4%), 2/23 (9%); 1/21 (5%), 1/21 (5%)


2010 Sydney through 2010 Wimbledon: 1/14 (7%), 2/14 (14%); 0/13 (0%), 1/13 (8%)
2010 Copenhagen through 2010 YEC: 5/8 (63%), 6/8 (75%); 4/7 (57%), 5/7 (71%)
2011 Sydney through 2011 Indian Wells: 2/5 (40%), 3/5 (60%); 2/5 (40%), 3/5 (60%)
2011 Sydney through 2011 Wimbledon: 5/14 (36%), 7/14 (50%); 4/13 (31%), 6/13 (46%)
2012 Bastad through 2011 YEC 1/8 (13%), 1/8 (13%); 1/7 (14%), 1/7 (14%)


Just fyi, these stats include a retirement by Caro up a set and 5-0 against Kremer at the international tournament Luxembourg in 2009 and a retirement by Caro shortly after winning the 1st set against Arvidsson at the international tournament Bastad in 2011.

Last edited by Protoss : Aug 14th, 2012 at 06:31 AM. Reason: corrected 2008 stats
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 07:04 PM   #3332
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by CWTennis View Post
Whats up with Caro this year, she plays less this season but often looks tired!

bobbychinBobby Chintapalli
Twitter, I informed Agnieszka Radwańska that you liked how she looked at the flag ceremony. Also Caroline Wozniacki looks mighty tired.
It's very puzzling. Poor 3 set record, which use to be her strength .. due to superior fitness. But like so many things from Caroline's game, the superior fitness is also now just a distant memory. The easy explanation : "She's played too much in previous seasons and now she pays the prize", isn't so plausible for me. It's not like the other players are just lying on their fat arses, drinking cola and eating hamburgers, when they're not playing. The net difference between playing and not playing, surely isn't that large.

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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 07:18 PM   #3333
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I still say its mental.
Dementieva said that years ago, the difference is not ability, its mental.
You are either into the fight (mentally) or you're not. All the early round losses, all the close losses, all the 3 set losses, those are all situations she used to be very good at winning
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #3334
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I still say its mental.
Dementieva said that years ago, the difference is not ability, its mental.
You are either into the fight (mentally) or you're not. All the early round losses, all the close losses, all the 3 set losses, those are all situations she used to be very good at winning
Maybe she's just tired of being on the tour in general. I've always felt that it seems like tennis is more of a chore for her these days. Compared to some other players she simply lacks that last bit of enthusiasm lately.

It's a radical idea that would of course make her lose her ranking etc. but maybe she needs to take a complete break of tennis for a while. Like six months up to a year...no tournaments, doing all the stuff she obviously wants to do that tennis is keeping her from right now. Maybe if she had that for a while the raw hunger and desire comes back.
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #3335
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Jimmie48 View Post
Maybe she's just tired of being on the tour in general. I've always felt that it seems like tennis is more of a chore for her these days. Compared to some other players she simply lacks that last bit of enthusiasm lately.

It's a radical idea that would of course make her lose her ranking etc. but maybe she needs to take a complete break of tennis for a while. Like six months up to a year...no tournaments, doing all the stuff she obviously wants to do that tennis is keeping her from right now. Maybe if she had that for a while the raw hunger and desire comes back.
I dont know what the answer is.
Caro was #1 for 51 weeks last year. No one's done that since Graf in the 1990's. When Kim took #1 for a week, Caro won Dubai, immediately. Then final Doha (when sick) and won IW.
She was playing tremendously consistent high level tennis.

None of that exists now. The high level is in short spurts. Being close to a win or to 1 set all means nothing now.

But I dont know if leaving tennis to follow McIlroy around for a few months means she never comes back to tennis
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #3336
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by Jimmie48 View Post
Maybe she's just tired of being on the tour in general. I've always felt that it seems like tennis is more of a chore for her these days. Compared to some other players she simply lacks that last bit of enthusiasm lately.

It's a radical idea that would of course make her lose her ranking etc. but maybe she needs to take a complete break of tennis for a while. Like six months up to a year...no tournaments, doing all the stuff she obviously wants to do that tennis is keeping her from right now. Maybe if she had that for a while the raw hunger and desire comes back.
I don't really like the idea of an extended break. She could get a bit too used to not having the demands of a tennis career. I'm not saying that'd she retire, just that she'd have the wrong sort of mentality for a professional athlete.

If Caro wanted to, she could pretty much end her season after the US Open. She wouldn't be the 1st player to do so. She's allowed to skip one premier 5 in a year so she could withdraw from Tokyo. She'd get a 0 pointer from Beijing though. If she ended her season after the US Open she'd gain an extra 1 1/2 to 2 months off compared to the past few seasons if that's what she wants.
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 09:11 PM   #3337
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Aww COme on Now she Having one Bad Year Guys Last 4 years Caro Been On top, We can't except her too be on Top Woman Tennis forever , she only 22 at that, I think this year shows that she have alot too improve on during offseason She can't just depend on error too come she going have too go for her shot at time and winners, Her Serve and FH should be the first step as well as coming in and playing more inside the baseline beside always being behind the baseline that should be work on during offseason, but too say she should take an extend break just for one bad year come on now I down for her when she Through the high and the low of her career
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #3338
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Its not just a bad year. She doesnt seem into it anymore.
this year she lost 1st round Rome, 3rd round FO (the 2 players she beat were floundering then). Lost 1st round Eastbourne, 1st round Wimbledon. Then didnt play again until Olympics. Even Serena, who played 2 weeks longer at Wimbledon, went to California and won, then back to Wimbledon.

Caroline used to play and play and play. This spring & summer she barely played matches.
Doesnt win any title, doesnt play much. Doesnt seem mentally engaged to her career.
Very very tough to get to the very elite. Tough to get there once. Brutally tough (almost impossible) to climb that mountain twice
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 09:55 PM   #3339
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Its not just a bad year. She doesnt seem into it anymore.
this year she lost 1st round Rome, 3rd round FO (the 2 players she beat were floundering then). Lost 1st round Eastbourne, 1st round Wimbledon. Then didnt play again until Olympics. Even Serena, who played 2 weeks longer at Wimbledon, went to California and won, then back to Wimbledon.

Caroline used to play and play and play. This spring & summer she barely played matches.
Doesnt win any title, doesnt play much. Doesnt seem mentally engaged to her career.
Very very tough to get to the very elite. Tough to get there once. Brutally tough (almost impossible) to climb that mountain twice
I think her not playing alot come from former Player saying she plays alot the last couple years WHen she was at top and not getting herself right for the Slam and that the reason Y she not won a Slam and been losing early in the year 2010-2011. But I think next year she would pick up more event too get her rank up I mean she playing Hasol Open this year for the first time, I hope she plays Moscow as well, & as far as Not being able to climb back up the rank JJ did it in 2010 so it can be done
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Old Aug 13th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #3340
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Watched the last three matches - well most of the Petra match. One thing which was unusual for Caro is that she had a lot of problems getting her 1st serve in. That obviously puts more pressure on her serve. But that low % is unusual for her and I would expect that to come up.

The big problem for me is that I just can' see how she can compete with the top girls when her UEs are so high compared to what they used to be. I don't want her to be passive and they can go up a bit maybe because she needs to keep the balls deep and go for chances when they are there to be taken. But they shouldn't be as much as this. She simply isn't going to develop any weapons which are better than other players to compensate for this alarming UE increase. I'm at a loss to know how she might reverse this.

I also think her net play has regressed. I'd thought before that it she was one thing she was getting quite good at. But not in the matches I saw. So I'd like to see her playing doubles a bit.

I don't have any problems with the concept of weathering out a storm which I think some posters had a problem with. That's not so bad. You see it all the time in the men's game. Some of the big servers for example. I remember Pete Sampras saying against Goran Ivanisevic that you just have to weather the storm out and hang in there and hope it blows over. He did that and won nearly all the games they played. And Caro will have to do that against a player like Petra.

I'm not yet convinced that Caro has turned the corner of beating lower ranked players. She had a huge stroke of luck with Lepchenko and Wozniak both messing up easy break or near break points in the last game with Caro at their mercy. In the past - lower ranked players very rarely got anywhere near to threatening Caro - and by that I mean as long ago as 2008. So we'll see about that if she can consistently beat lower ranked players.

On Petra - she played smart in the second set. Didn't see the third set. I went to bed. In the 1st set - she played with no thought and was a brainless ballbasher. But some of her play in the 2nd set reminded me of Hingis. She was playing an all court game and wasn't just bashing it around.

Finally - it was refreshing to have Sam Smith eventually commenting on Caro's matchs. She was pointing out things that we knew with here with Johansson. But it was good. She really does her homework. Chris Bradnam replied that he was only hired for the grass season (Wimbledon & Olympics). I think he just made that up or another male commenator had said that and he just repeated it without checking.
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 04:27 AM   #3341
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

After reflecting upon how asininely that MD was put together,I started picturing what would happen if Caro had had 10 qualifiers placed in her quarter....could you imagine the GM reaction?
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 04:43 AM   #3342
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

I thought a young player who was #1 as long as Caro, really cared about winning. Thats why she won so many titles, was #1 so long. She was on pace to be #1 for a long time. Win a lot of titles.

What really surprised me this past year is the "I dont care about winning" attitude she's had for a full year.
Since the USO 2011, she went 11 months and 18 tournaments with no titles, only 1 final (an Intl) and only 3 other semis.
4 semis in her last 18 tournaments. When she played Goerges in the 2011 Stuttgart final that was her 5 final in 6 tournaments. Her 2010 YEC final with Kim was also her 5th final in 6 tournaments. She had 4 titles, YEC final and USO SF in her last 6 tournaments of 2010.
Now 4 semis in 18 tournaments over 11 months.

Is this because she doesnt care about winning and she's trying to be more aggressive, even if it means years of being irrelevant. Or is she so mentally weak that she cant get thru a draw anymore unless she's playing Wozniak in a QF or Martic in a semi at Copenhagen.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but the choices dont look appealing
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 07:18 AM   #3343
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by terjw View Post
Watched the last three matches - well most of the Petra match. One thing which was unusual for Caro is that she had a lot of problems getting her 1st serve in. That obviously puts more pressure on her serve. But that low % is unusual for her and I would expect that to come up.

The big problem for me is that I just can' see how she can compete with the top girls when her UEs are so high compared to what they used to be. I don't want her to be passive and they can go up a bit maybe because she needs to keep the balls deep and go for chances when they are there to be taken. But they shouldn't be as much as this. She simply isn't going to develop any weapons which are better than other players to compensate for this alarming UE increase. I'm at a loss to know how she might reverse this.

I also think her net play has regressed. I'd thought before that it she was one thing she was getting quite good at. But not in the matches I saw. So I'd like to see her playing doubles a bit.

I don't have any problems with the concept of weathering out a storm which I think some posters had a problem with. That's not so bad. You see it all the time in the men's game. Some of the big servers for example. I remember Pete Sampras saying against Goran Ivanisevic that you just have to weather the storm out and hang in there and hope it blows over. He did that and won nearly all the games they played. And Caro will have to do that against a player like Petra.

I'm not yet convinced that Caro has turned the corner of beating lower ranked players. She had a huge stroke of luck with Lepchenko and Wozniak both messing up easy break or near break points in the last game with Caro at their mercy. In the past - lower ranked players very rarely got anywhere near to threatening Caro - and by that I mean as long ago as 2008. So we'll see about that if she can consistently beat lower ranked players.

On Petra - she played smart in the second set. Didn't see the third set. I went to bed. In the 1st set - she played with no thought and was a brainless ballbasher. But some of her play in the 2nd set reminded me of Hingis. She was playing an all court game and wasn't just bashing it around.

Finally - it was refreshing to have Sam Smith eventually commenting on Caro's matchs. She was pointing out things that we knew with here with Johansson. But it was good. She really does her homework. Chris Bradnam replied that he was only hired for the grass season (Wimbledon & Olympics). I think he just made that up or another male commenator had said that and he just repeated it without checking.
Yah and despite Caro's relatively low 1st serve % she only had 3 aces in 4 matches. It's interesting that Aga is averaging about 2.7 aces per match which is a lot higher than Caro despite Caro's 1st serve having somewhat more speed. I think Johansson may be barking up the wrong tree trying to add more pace to Caro's serve.

It's not like the additional unforced errors are generally coming from aggressive play though. In a lot of Caro's best played matches her winner totals have in the mid to high teens or greater for a two set match.

But a lot times the storm of the opponent hasn't gone away for Caro.
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 07:31 AM   #3344
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I thought a young player who was #1 as long as Caro, really cared about winning. Thats why she won so many titles, was #1 so long. She was on pace to be #1 for a long time. Win a lot of titles.

What really surprised me this past year is the "I dont care about winning" attitude she's had for a full year.
Since the USO 2011, she went 11 months and 18 tournaments with no titles, only 1 final (an Intl) and only 3 other semis.
4 semis in her last 18 tournaments. When she played Goerges in the 2011 Stuttgart final that was her 5 final in 6 tournaments. Her 2010 YEC final with Kim was also her 5th final in 6 tournaments. She had 4 titles, YEC final and USO SF in her last 6 tournaments of 2010.
Now 4 semis in 18 tournaments over 11 months.

Is this because she doesnt care about winning and she's trying to be more aggressive, even if it means years of being irrelevant. Or is she so mentally weak that she cant get thru a draw anymore unless she's playing Wozniak in a QF or Martic in a semi at Copenhagen.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but the choices dont look appealing
Caro's won three 3 set matches in her last two tournaments with two of those wins coming from a set down. I don't think you do that if you don't care about winning.

I think to a certain extent a drop in results was inevitable. It's just too dificult to keep it going for a super long time. Beyond that I don't know. I don't think she's been more aggressive for the most part. Is it a drop in confidence, loss of focus, diminished hunger? I think only Caro can tell us (or a close member of her team) and she is pretty unlikely to tell us anytime soon. Perhaps she would say something about it after her career is over in a memoir.
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Old Aug 14th, 2012, 08:11 AM   #3345
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by terjw View Post
The big problem for me is that I just can' see how she can compete with the top girls when her UEs are so high compared to what they used to be. I don't want her to be passive and they can go up a bit maybe because she needs to keep the balls deep and go for chances when they are there to be taken. But they shouldn't be as much as this. She simply isn't going to develop any weapons which are better than other players to compensate for this alarming UE increase. I'm at a loss to know how she might reverse this.
Were her unforced errors that bad against Petra? I'm not 100% sure about these numbers but I thought that she had two winners/one unforced error in the first set and one winner/three unforced errors in the second set (I didn't see any numbers for the third set).

Quote:
I also think her net play has regressed. I'd thought before that it she was one thing she was getting quite good at. But not in the matches I saw. So I'd like to see her playing doubles a bit.
Agree! Agree! Agree! She's young and in great shape, playing doubles more often shouldn't hurt her. Even if she just played six-ten doubles tournaments a year I think it could really help her improve her game.

Quote:
I don't have any problems with the concept of weathering out a storm which I think some posters had a problem with. That's not so bad. You see it all the time in the men's game. Some of the big servers for example. I remember Pete Sampras saying against Goran Ivanisevic that you just have to weather the storm out and hang in there and hope it blows over. He did that and won nearly all the games they played. And Caro will have to do that against a player like Petra.
To be honest I didn't see many of Sampras' matches but wasn't he regarded as having one of the best serves of his generation? I can see the "weathering the storm" strategy working for him because he had a big weapon and could rely on holding his serve but I would argue that Caroline very much lacks a reliable serve and tends to be broken fairly often. If you can't hold your own serve you absolutely need to find a way to break your opponent, waiting for their level to drop doesn't seem like an effective strategy for Caroline until/unless she develops a much more reliable serve.

Quote:
I'm not yet convinced that Caro has turned the corner of beating lower ranked players. She had a huge stroke of luck with Lepchenko and Wozniak both messing up easy break or near break points in the last game with Caro at their mercy. In the past - lower ranked players very rarely got anywhere near to threatening Caro - and by that I mean as long ago as 2008. So we'll see about that if she can consistently beat lower ranked players.
True but it is somewhat encouraging that she managed to win against Lepchenko and Wozniak when she was not at her best. One of the big differences this year is that she is losing too many close matches to lower ranked opponents. These weren't the kind of one-sided wins we are used to seeing when she plays opponents like this but ultimately she did find a way to win. We do need to see how she does for the rest of the season before drawing any conclusions but this could give her a boost in confidence, if she can have a similar run in Cincinnati that will be even more encouraging.

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On Petra - she played smart in the second set. Didn't see the third set. I went to bed. In the 1st set - she played with no thought and was a brainless ballbasher. But some of her play in the 2nd set reminded me of Hingis. She was playing an all court game and wasn't just bashing it around.
I don't know if I would compare her to Hingis but I definitely agree that Petra played much smarter in the second set. She definitely took some pace off of her shots and looked to be trying to keep the ball in play and wait for her chances rather than what we saw from her in the first set.

I just wanted to add that I was completely wrong regarding the rain delays/moving matches indoors and you were completely right. The tournament finished on time and fans were able to see all of the "important" matches so the organisers made the right decision and everything worked out well. I have no problem acknowledging when I am wrong. Lucky for me it is an extremely rare occurrence.
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