Where would you objectively place Aranxta in the all-time list? - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Nov 14th, 2002, 02:43 PM   #1
Steffica Greles
Senior Member
 
Steffica Greles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
Posts: 4,095
Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute
Where would you objectively place Aranxta in the all-time list?

I can only think of these players whom I would DEFINITELY place above Aranxta in terms of achievements: (in no order)

Steffi Graf
Martina Navratilova
Chris Evert
Monica Seles
Maureen Connolly
Margaret Court
Billie-Jean King
Helen Wills-Moody
Suzanne Lenglen
Maria Bueno

I'm sure there are a few others of the pre-70s period whom I've missed.

Then there are a few who COULD be placed above Aranxta, but would be highly debatable:

Evonne Goolagagong: Won 7 slams, but 4 were in very weak Aussie Open fields. I'd probably place her lower than Aranxta.

Tracy Austin: Well she surely can't be placed above Aranxta because she didn't last past the age of 21. However, she is still one of only 11 women to reach the top, and probably would have rivalled Navratilova even more competitively than Evert, had she not have been injured.

Hana Mandlikova: Was always dangerous, and won 4 slams, but lacked Aranxta's consistency. Aranxta's career has to be superior to Hana's.

Lindsay Davenport: Well Lindsay DOES hold two cards over Aranxta: she has won 37 career titles by the age of 26, compared to Aranxta's 29 in her entire career. She has also been longer at no.1.

However, Aranxta would surely win with 12 slam finals compared to Lindsay's 5, and over a decade in the top ten. Aranxta's other results easily outweigh Lindsay's other achievements.

Martina Hingis: Well Hingis is the only player of this group whom I would place, if only narrowly, above Aranxta.

She has won 40 career titles already, is 4th in weeks at no.1(while Aranxta is the lowest) and has won 5 slams compared to Aranxta's 4. She's also equalled Aranxta's 12 slam finals by the age of only 22.

Aranxta's career has greater longevity, but Hingis' achievements by such a young age, just, in my opinion, tip the balance in her favour.

Venus&Serena Williams:

Now these two I find the hardest to decide. I'm placing them together because it saves time(lol) and because up until now, their achievements are roughly similar.

While Aranxta's numbers heavily outweigh those of the Williams' in most areas, I feel that they've already achieved domination which Aranxta never reached.

They're also both well on their way to equalling her total of singles titles.

Furthermore, how can Aranxta be placed above two players who have completely changed the game? Their power and athleticism is something that will already go down in history.

Still, maybe because I'm biased, I think they need another year as the top two players before they can be placed above Aranxta. They must reach an Australian Open final for starters.

Who agrees/disagrees?
Steffica Greles is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Nov 14th, 2002, 02:50 PM   #2
Steffica Greles
Senior Member
 
Steffica Greles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
Posts: 4,095
Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute
Unless anyone can think of any others who've achieved more than Aranxta, she is 14th in my list.
Steffica Greles is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 03:02 PM   #3
macn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 246
macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice
I would never put Aranxta over Evonne Goolagong. Evonne won 88 titles along with 7 grand slams and numerous finals. the 1974 and 1975 Australian open had a good field. Evonne beat Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Kerry Reid and Sue Barker along the way to those two titles. Venus and Arantxa both have 4 grand slams, been to #1, Aranxta has 29 titles and Venus has 25, I don't think that's too much of a stretch. The only thing I give there is Aranxts's longevity and Grand slam finals.
__________________
MACN
macn is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 03:07 PM   #4
country flag hingis-seles
Senior Member
 
hingis-seles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,046
hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute hingis-seles has a reputation beyond repute
Martina Hingis should be above her.

I feel Lindsay should be above Aranxta also because 3 out of 4 of Aranxta's slams came at RG while Lindsay has one title at the Australian, Wimbledon and US.

I would also place Hana Mandlikova above her.

I would also put Althea Gibson above Aranxta. She won Roland Garros in 1956, Wimbledon and US Open in 1957 and 1958. She won a total of 11 majors in singles and doubles. You also have to consider the factor of her as a pioneer for African-Americans in tennis.
__________________
FUCK YOU, SEWTA.
[/size]
hingis-seles is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 03:21 PM   #5
wave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 2,613
wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute wave has a reputation beyond repute
Why should Hana be rated higher than Arantxa?

Same amount of GS titles, yet Arantxa was no. 1 in both doubles and singles (and that at the same time). Hana was not.

I can't say anything about the pre-Navratilova aera, but I agree about Hingis (higher) and Davenport (lower) though Lindsay might win another GS and then we would have to rethink this.

I'm sure we will have to rate both Serena and Venus higher than Arantxa. If not now, then next year. They will go on winning Slams and they will surely increase their number of weeks as number 1 (which is already higher than Arantxa's).

Refering to impact on the game: Arantxa had an impact on the game. She showed determination and fighting spirit and should therefore be a role modell for other players. She also proved that fast legs are important and tennis tactics... An don't reduce the sisters to just being powerful and athletic. They got a bit of all that was mentioned above (maybe besides tennis tactics...)
__________________
Monica announced her official retirement on February 14, 2008. What a sad day! I'm proud to be a Selestial and I admire Monica for her fighting spirit and her character.
The tennis world has lost one of the greatest players of all time! Have a wonderful post-tennis life!

Arantxa, you will always be in my heart. Thanks for all the great matches you gave us and for just being a wonderful person on and off court.
All the best for your future!
wave is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 03:31 PM   #6
Steffica Greles
Senior Member
 
Steffica Greles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
Posts: 4,095
Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute
You simply cannot place Hana above Aranxta!

I don't really know why I threw her name in. Probably to add to the debate LOL

If you look at the stats, I'm sure there would be very few indeed where Hana would even match Aranxta, let alone overshadow her.

Lindsay is more difficult, but I just don't feel Lindsay has the same amount of years of success behind her. Furthermore, Lindsay hasn't played many epic matches.

To even be the runner-up in some of the greatest matches of all time - as Aranxta so often was - you have to be a truly amazing player to have had the determination to raise your game to that level.
Steffica Greles is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 04:06 PM   #7
selesrules
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,204
selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past
I agree with the first list (except changes in the top 4) although I would also put Hingis above Aranxta because Hingis has more grandslams, more titles and way more weeks at no.1.
selesrules is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 05:52 PM   #8
Steffica Greles
Senior Member
 
Steffica Greles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
Posts: 4,095
Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute
Okay, I agree that Goolagong and Althea Gibson should also be placed above Aranxta.

I only had limited knowledge of both of those players.

There's one other player, Alice Marble, who perhaps should be above Aranxta. Can anyone tell me much about her?

I haven't revised my tennis history for some years now

Thus far, Aranxta is 16th in my list.
Steffica Greles is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 06:26 PM   #9
macn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 246
macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice macn is just really nice
Let's place Aranxta further down because I believe Louise Brough, Doris Hart and Margaret Osbourne Dupont would rank higher. All has held the year end #1, Louise has 4 Wimbledons, 1 U.S. Open and 1 Australian, Margaret has 3 U.S. Opens 1 Wimbledon and 2 French and Doris won all of the Majors. Let's not talk doubles and Mixed, they all have multiple wins.
__________________
MACN
macn is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 06:38 PM   #10
disposablehero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,311
disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future
Martina Hingis should be above Arantxa. Hard to argue against someone with 1 more Slam and twice as many regular titles in half the time.

Above both of them should be:

Evonne Goolagong
Alice Marble
Althea Gibson
Doris Hart
Molla Mallory

And probably someone I have forgotten. Looking at overall career path, I would honestly have to put both Williams ahead of Arantxa too.
__________________
You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
disposablehero is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 06:40 PM   #11
disposablehero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,311
disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future disposablehero has a brilliant future
Steffica, Alice Marble was essentially unbeatable for about 2 years going into World War II. 5 Slams doesn't even begin to do her justice.
__________________
You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
disposablehero is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 06:40 PM   #12
calabar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 956
calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of
This question is about as easy to answer as the "who is the greatest of all time" question. In order to objectively rank players on an all-time list, you would first have to have a list of all the players AND their respective accomplishments. Clearly that would be extremely impractical to do. If you ask any individual to rank players, that indidual can only based their response on the players that they have seen play, hence a tennis fan in their early twenties would be at a hugh disadvantage to someone in their sixties for example. This problem is obviously true for ANY sport. That is wht so many generation-x types would rank Michael Jordan over Bill Russel because they have never seen any of the older greats play except from some archival black-and-white video clips.

What I am realy trying to say is that I don't have a clue where to rank Arnaxta on "All-time" list. I will say this much, of the players that I have seen perform, then I would have the following:

Navratilova
Graf
Seles
Venus/Serena
Evert
Hingis
Davenport
Arantxa


Calabar
__________________
No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent

- Eleanor Roosevelt


Until the philosophy which holds one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war...

- Bob Marley/Haile Selassie
calabar is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 07:17 PM   #13
Steffica Greles
Senior Member
 
Steffica Greles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
Posts: 4,095
Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute Steffica Greles has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally posted by calabar
If you ask any individual to rank players, that indidual can only based their response on the players that they have seen play, hence a tennis fan in their early twenties would be at a hugh disadvantage to someone in their sixties for example.

Calabar
No, because we're not basing our placings on who hit the most winners, or who covered the court quickest, or even who was mentally toughest.

We're trying to think of players who achieved more than Aranxta in terms of accomplishments.

We don't need to have seen them to do that. We simply need a good history book

DisposableHero: I remember reading about all of those players at some time, especially Alice Marble, but I couldn't be bothered to go fish out my book before starting this thread.

Thanks

That makes Aranxta....about 20th so far?

I'm enjoying this
Steffica Greles is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 07:28 PM   #14
calabar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 956
calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of calabar has much to be proud of
Steffica,

How would you go about evaluating Graff and Lenglen given the fact that their achievements are separated by more than half a century? Do you know how many winners were hit by either athlete? what do you know about their mental toughness, is this something you can find in a history book?

Pray tell.
__________________
No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent

- Eleanor Roosevelt


Until the philosophy which holds one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war...

- Bob Marley/Haile Selassie
calabar is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14th, 2002, 07:57 PM   #15
selesrules
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,204
selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past selesrules has a little shameless behaviour in the past
In order:

1. Navratilova
2. Billie Jean King
3. Seles
4. Evert
5. Graf
6. Connolly
7. Court
8. Moody
9. Lenglen
10. Hingis
11. S.Vicario
selesrules is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios