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Old Feb 25th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #556
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by coolfish1103 View Post
I thought Indian Wells uses seeding from next Monday?
During the last years they have definitely been using ranks from previous week.
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Old Feb 25th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #557
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

is there a big ranking change expected this week
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Old Feb 25th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #558
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by coolfish1103 View Post
I thought Indian Wells uses seeding from next Monday?
WTA Rulebook decides unambiguously: Seeding will be based on the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament in question. (Sect. III/C/6) So the the seeds for the women's Indian Wells tournament will follow the current ranking.

Which will not be the case, btw, of the men's tournament. The corresponding ATP rule says that The selection and arrangement of seeds shall be based upon the most recent Emirates ATP Rankings list. Thus the WTA and ATP contests in IW and Miami will use seedinds founded on non-simultaneous rankings.
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Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #559
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

I think Fichman's 10 points shoul be erased since she got into the main draw as LL.
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Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #560
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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I think Fichman's 10 points shoul be erased since she got into the main draw as LL.
R1 losers keep the qualifying points.
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Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #561
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
WTA Rulebook decides unambiguously: Seeding will be based on the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament in question. (Sect. III/C/6) So the the seeds for the women's Indian Wells tournament will follow the current ranking.

Which will not be the case, btw, of the men's tournament. The corresponding ATP rule says that The selection and arrangement of seeds shall be based upon the most recent Emirates ATP Rankings list. Thus the WTA and ATP contests in IW and Miami will use seedinds founded on non-simultaneous rankings.
I don't think it's the difference in WTA versus ATP wording, rather the difference in the men's and women's schedules, that gives rise to different seedings being used.

I've been down that road before, trying to ascribe an unambiguous meaning to the WTA wording, and I don't find the WTA wording unambiguous at all. For one thing, I haven't found any definition of the term "start of the Tournament" in the WTA rules. [Is it the day play starts in the main draw? The day play starts in the qualifying draw? Or is it the day the qualifying draw is actually held, (which can't be later than the day before qualifiers are scheduled to start play)?] This may seem like a trivial nitpick, but it can lead to grey areas when deciding what's actually required.

Compounding that use of that undefined term, the words "the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament" can be taken to mean the week prior to the week the tournament starts (that's what most people would conclude when they see the words "week prior to the start"), or it can be taken to mean the same week as the start (which is what they are actually doing, provided the start is taken to mean the day the earlier of the QD and MD is held, not the start of play).

What I think the WTA rules are attempting to say, is the latest rankings in effect at the time the qualifying draw is held (normally the earlier of the two draws), will be used for both the QD and MD seedings (Meelis already supplied that clarification). That was the reason I was given, in the case of a tournament which holds the main draw after the latest rankings have taken effect, but doesn't use those rankings unless they took effect in time to be used in the qualifying draw too.
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Old Feb 28th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #562
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by don99 View Post
the words "the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament" can be taken to mean the week prior to the week the tournament starts [...] or it can be taken to mean the same week as the start
With all due respect, you're falling into a self-contradiction, I'm afraid. Yes, there is some ambiguity about the meaning of the term the start of the tournament . It can be intepreted as the start of the Main Draw or as the earlier date of the start of the Qualifying Draw. But neither of these two interpretations can lead to the conclusion that the week prior to the start of the Tournament means the week when first matches of the Main Draw are held.

-----
prior: earlier in time or order : previous; synonyms: preceding (from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary)
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Old Feb 28th, 2013, 03:59 AM   #563
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Thanks for the clarifications.
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Old Feb 28th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #564
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
With all due respect, you're falling into a self-contradiction, I'm afraid. Yes, there is some ambiguity about the meaning of the term the start of the tournament . It can be intepreted as the start of the Main Draw or as the earlier date of the start of the Qualifying Draw. But neither of these two interpretations can lead to the conclusion that the week prior to the start of the Tournament means the week when first matches of the Main Draw are held.
Not to be argumentative, but are there not tournaments for which all of the possible interpretations of "start of the Tournament" (the start of play in the MD, the start of play in the QD, the day on which the MD is conducted, and the day on which the QD is conducted) all fall at the end of the same week as the rankings used for seeding.

If "the week prior to the start of the Tournament" cannot be taken to mean "the week when first matches of the Main Draw are held", it then cannot be taken to mean the week in which any of these interpretations for "start of the Tournament" falls. All would lead to the same contradiction.

That was my whole point, advising caution to such statements as:
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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
WTA Rulebook decides unambiguously: Seeding will be based on the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament in question. (Sect. III/C/6
(my bolding added to "WTA Rulebook decides unambiguously")
It appears we are in agreement - the wording is not at all unambiguous.
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Old Mar 1st, 2013, 11:41 AM   #565
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

Keep up the nice work!
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 06:26 AM   #566
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
WTA Rulebook decides unambiguously: Seeding will be based on the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament in question. (Sect. III/C/6) So the the seeds for the women's Indian Wells tournament will follow the current ranking.

Which will not be the case, btw, of the men's tournament. The corresponding ATP rule says that The selection and arrangement of seeds shall be based upon the most recent Emirates ATP Rankings list. Thus the WTA and ATP contests in IW and Miami will use seedinds founded on non-simultaneous rankings.
Well, according to the qualifying draw the newest ranking was used.

Effectively meaning the main draw has to use the newest ranking.

So Cornet took Peng's seeding spot.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #567
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

^ no they havent used updated ranks
or else Puchkova vs Karolina Pliskova would both be seeded. They meet in Q1
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #568
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Originally Posted by coolfish1103 View Post
Well, according to the qualifying draw the newest ranking was used.
Obviously not. Please check the players whose ranking positions have changed since last week, eg Olga Puchkova, the Plišková sisters, Eleni Danilidou. Their positions on the seeding list and the ranking numbers displayed to the right of their names clearly refer to the previous ranking and not to the current one. According to the new ranking Karolina Plišková should be seeded 4th, ahead of Torro-Flor and Svitolina; actually she's not seeded at all.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #569
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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Not to be argumentative, but are there not tournaments for which all of the possible interpretations of "start of the Tournament" (the start of play in the MD, the start of play in the QD, the day on which the MD is conducted, and the day on which the QD is conducted) all fall at the end of the same week as the rankings used for seeding.
True but irrelevant to the matter under discussion. The point is whether the IW seeds will be based on the ranking list of Monday March the 4th. That was what Coolfish and some other posters asked about. And this question is unambigously settled by the WTA Rulebook - the answer is no. Seeding will be based on the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament, let me recall the corresponding regulation. You may attribute various meanings to the term "start of the Tournament", but no one of them can refer to the week of March 11th, while the first round of the Main Draw is scheduled for March 6th/7th.

The WTA Rulebook can sometimes be ambiguous or obscure, but there's no need to make it more obscure than it actually is.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #570
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Re: WTA Ranks Update Thread

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True but irrelevant to the matter under discussion. .......... You may attribute various meanings to the term "start of the Tournament", but no one of them can refer to the week of March 11th, while the first round of the Main Draw is scheduled for March 6th/7th.
Speaking of irrelevance and making things more confusing, explain to me where I said March 11 was a possible candidate for anything?
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The WTA Rulebook can sometimes be ambiguous or obscure, but there's no need to make it more obscure than it actually is.
I don't need to add ambiguity, there is plenty there already!
[I didn't even mention the question of what is meant by "the week". In ordinary usage, a calendar week typically means Sunday-Saturday, but for some people it means Monday-Sunday. I don't recall anywhere in the rulebook that addresses this question explicitly, so to make sure we aren't thinking of two different things when we say "the week", in the context of this WTA rule, I take it to implicitly mean Monday through Sunday (each week's rankings are effective Monday through Sunday).]
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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
The point is whether the IW seeds will be based on the ranking list of Monday March the 4th. That was what Coolfish and some other posters asked about.
That is the question I answered - whether the wording unambiguously lets one decide between Feb 25 or Mar 4 rankings for the seeding of the main draw. I am in agreement that it could not be March 4 for IW this year and never suggested it should be (or March 11 for that matter). What I cautioned is that it is not because of the reason you gave .... and give again.
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Originally Posted by Kerbicz View Post
And this question is unambigously settled by the WTA Rulebook - the answer is no. Seeding will be based on the WTA Rankings the week prior to the start of the Tournament, let me recall the corresponding regulation.
If this is the reason you are again citing for why the seedings for the IW main draw are not those of March 4 (because March 4 is in the same week as the start of play in the main draw?), I again advise you to look at tournaments which start on a Saturday or Sunday, where seedings are based on rankings from the same week as the start of the Tournament, not the week prior to it.

As far as I've been able to discern, the WTA always uses the rankings in effect at the time the qualifying draw is conducted. That's what I said in my first response and stuck to all along. Without knowing that, the sentence you keep saying is unambiguous is actually totally uninterpretable.
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