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Old Dec 20th, 2011, 05:39 PM   #46
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christina Cha View Post
So these songs from '95 are better than today's music? Real McCoy? Seriously?!
So you picked ONE SONG to prove a point? As a group, these songs are much better than most of the numbers 1's we had for the last decade or something. There's no doubt imo that mainstream music is sucking more, and it all started because of the Spice Girls, Shitney and their friends.

Several of them are classic and remain mainstays on the radio. WHat classic do you think we have had this year?
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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 01:37 AM   #47
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoleb View Post
So you picked ONE SONG to prove a point? As a group, these songs are much better than most of the numbers 1's we had for the last decade or something. There's no doubt imo that mainstream music is sucking more, and it all started because of the Spice Girls, Shitney and their friends.

Several of them are classic and remain mainstays on the radio. WHat classic do you think we have had this year?
that I'm in the middle of this argument. Mainstream music hasn't meant much to me in years. I mean, right now I'm listening to Real Estate and Yeasayer.

Anywho... here's the list again:

Quote:
1995

1 "Gangsta's Paradise" Coolio and L.V.
2 "Waterfalls" TLC
3 "Creep" TLC
4 "Kiss from a Rose" Seal
5 "On Bended Knee" Boyz II Men
6 "Another Night" Real McCoy
7 "Fantasy" Mariah Carey
8 "Take a Bow" Madonna
9 "Don't Take It Personal (Just One of Dem Days)" Monica
10 "This Is How We Do It" Montell Jordan
11 "I Know" Dionne Farris
12 "Water Runs Dry" Boyz II Men
13 "Freak Like Me" Adina Howard
14 "Run-Around" Blues Traveler
15 "I Can Love You Like That" All-4-One
16 "Have You Ever Really Loved a Woman?" Bryan Adams
17 "Always" Bon Jovi
18 "Boombastic" Shaggy
19 "Total Eclipse of the Heart" Nicki French
20 "You Gotta Be" Des'ree
There are some nice songs here that hold up well but there's crap, too. Just like today but you guys prolly know better than me since you guys keep up with mainstream music. I guess Adele is the only who is quality?
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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 04:50 AM   #48
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christina Cha View Post
that I'm in the middle of this argument. Mainstream music hasn't meant much to me in years. I mean, right now I'm listening to Real Estate and Yeasayer.

Anywho... here's the list again:



There are some nice songs here that hold up well but there's crap, too. Just like today but you guys prolly know better than me since you guys keep up with mainstream music. I guess Adele is the only who is quality?
Gangsta Paradise, Waterfalls, Creep, Kiss From a Rose, Have You Ever..., Always, You Gotta Be are STILL played regularly on the radio. These are songs that left their marks.

Fantasy and Take a Bow are also excellent pop songs.

A lot of the other ones I haven't heard actually, but Monica and BoyzIIMen are QUALITY R&B acts.

Basically that list >>>> 2011 with S&M, What's My Name, Born This Way, Katy Perry's 4 singles or something dominating the charts.

So next time people put complaining about the quality of mainstream music on "nostalgia" or whatever, check the facts.
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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 06:15 AM   #49
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

One thing is certain, the shelf live of current music is very short.
Most people making music today are really entrepreneur first, and artist second.

In such climate, raw, artist talent takes a backseat to the presentation, the "act".


Look at the music (R&B, Soul, Rock 'n Roll, Reggae) from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's it can still be listened today, and the artist of those eras who are still around, can still perform.
These are real artists, not people coming together to perform an act, and quietly disappear when the targeted audience grows up and outgrows the music or the act.

Imagine how a rap musician can perform their music 10-15 years from now?
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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 06:42 AM   #50
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

Pop snobbery is one of the most laughable things I can think of. And when I speak of pop snobbery, I include everything from rock to R&B to hip-hop, etc from the last several decades. I love pop music from all decades, but this idea that artists nowadays have nothing on the TRUE artistry of yesteryear is so embarrassing. As someone who grew up playing classical piano for most of his childhood and adolescence, I just lol at people who talk about how amazingly talented and artistic pop performers used to be. I love pop music far more than I do classical music, but it just takes someone with a modicum of knowledge of music theory and and workings of pieces of music to see how simplistic almost all pop music is. And this includes even most pop acts that get lauded for writing their own music and playing their own instruments. This isn't to say that all pop music is always very simplistic and the artists untalented, but the fact remains that pop music is pop music because it is simple and straightforward and unchallenging. This isn't a criticism of it, it's just the simple facts.

Pop music is much more samey then it used to be, and the artists are probably less talented than they used to be in general. But there's still a ton of great music if you just look for it, and stop with myopic nostalgia about how great pop music used to be. When you start down that road about how great it was in the 90s, then you can talk about how much better it was in the 80s than in the 90s, then about how much better the folk rock singer songwriters were than the 80s pop stars, then about how much better the old classic pop/jazz singer were than the 60s songwriters, etc. It'll never end until someone just gets snobbish enough to bring in classical music or experimental jazz (ie: me). Just let the pop trends go where they will and enjoy what you will.

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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 09:34 AM   #51
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christina Cha View Post
I guess Adele is the only who is quality?
Adele's the musical equivalent of tofu.
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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 02:32 PM   #52
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
Pop snobbery is one of the most laughable things I can think of. And when I speak of pop snobbery, I include everything from rock to R&B to hip-hop, etc from the last several decades. I love pop music from all decades, but this idea that artists nowadays have nothing on the TRUE artistry of yesteryear is so embarrassing. As someone who grew up playing classical piano for most of his childhood and adolescence, I just lol at people who talk about how amazingly talented and artistic pop performers used to be. I love pop music far more than I do classical music, but it just takes someone with a modicum of knowledge of music theory and and workings of pieces of music to see how simplistic almost all pop music is. And this includes even most pop acts that get lauded for writing their own music and playing their own instruments. This isn't to say that all pop music is always very simplistic and the artists untalented, but the fact remains that pop music is pop music because it is simple and straightforward and unchallenging. This isn't a criticism of it, it's just the simple facts.

Pop music is much more samey then it used to be, and the artists are probably less talented than they used to be in general. But there's still a ton of great music if you just look for it, and stop with myopic nostalgia about how great pop music used to be. When you start down that road about how great it was in the 90s, then you can talk about how much better it was in the 80s than in the 90s, then about how much better the folk rock singer songwriters were than the 80s pop stars, then about how much better the old classic pop/jazz singer were than the 60s songwriters, etc. It'll never end until someone just gets snobbish enough to bring in classical music or experimental jazz (ie: me). Just let the pop trends go where they will and enjoy what you will.
Pop music is not created all equal. For someone who's attempting to rail down on musical snobs and claim he's a pop fan, you sure sound like a snob (are you, are you not?)

Wuthering Heights is a freakin' pop song. Imagine is a pop song. Yesterday by the Beatles is a pop song. Basically some of the most celebrated music is "pop" music. To claim that it's all the same with, say, Firework is lunacy. The only thing pop music has in common is immediacy to the listener, usually in the form of melody. That does not mean that there aren't good/bad pop artistis, or those with more musical credit and complex arrangements (i.e ABBA). Some of the most potent music involves simple lyrics accompanied by music to drive the point home - (i.e Imagine), and that does not mean it's shallow.

I haven't listened to much of pre90s pop, but I would not be surprised at all if the trend has been getting worse and worse. There was much more going on musically with those who were at the top of the charts in the 90s than in the 00s. Somebody posted that 1995 #1 list and I think the difference is quite apparent. So if you have any point to make, please support it by actual data rather than, I dunno, argument from authority or whatever; cause I'm not what this rant really means, unless you do mean to say all pop is the same, which is frankly retarded.

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Old Dec 21st, 2011, 04:31 PM   #53
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

I'd say 90's and 80's music are better than most of the songs played today.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:25 AM   #54
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by Apoleb View Post
Pop music is not created all equal. For someone who's attempting to rail down on musical snobs and claim he's a pop fan, you sure sound like a snob (are you, are you not?)

Wuthering Heights is a freakin' pop song. Imagine is a pop song. Yesterday by the Beatles is a pop song. Basically some of the most celebrated music is "pop" music. To claim that it's all the same with, say, Firework is lunacy. The only thing pop music has in common is immediacy to the listener, usually in the form of melody. That does not mean that there aren't good/bad pop artistis, or those with more musical credit and complex arrangements (i.e ABBA). Some of the most potent music involves simple lyrics accompanied by music to drive the point home - (i.e Imagine), and that does not mean it's shallow.

I haven't listened to much of pre90s pop, but I would not be surprised at all if the trend has been getting worse and worse. There was much more going on musically with those who were at the top of the charts in the 90s than in the 00s. Somebody posted that 1995 #1 list and I think the difference is quite apparent. So if you have any point to make, please support it by actual data rather than, I dunno, argument from authority or whatever; cause I'm not what this rant really means, unless you do mean to say all pop is the same, which is frankly retarded.
This is music structure and music theory, what data do you want? They don't do numbers for this kind of stuff.

You misread my argument. I admitted I'm going to play the music snob. But there's a difference between a pop snob and a general music snob. Pop snobs are ridiculous just by definition. And if you don't believe my claim that I'm a pop fan far more than a classical music fan, would you like the link to my last.fm?

Wuthering Heights and Beatles songs have much more in common with Katy Perry songs than just immediacy. The basic form they use is the same, the song. And because they both use the same form the structure is going to be nearly identical in every pop song. Some artists may play with the structure more than others, but it's going to be mostly superficial, it's the same form all around. Other forms of music like classical European music and jazz play with form and push it much more and end up with vastly different structures. (For "stats" here, compare Ornette Coleman or idk, Debussy to the Beatles at their most experimental. The boundary pushing structurally isn't on the same plane) .

They also share also general chord progressions. Have you never watched the videos where a guy with a guitar starts off with a Beatles song, then switches to a Bon Jovi song, then to an Aerosmith song, etc. and they all sound eerily similar? It's because the chord progressions. This holds true for the large majority of pop songs, even the largely respected ones. Conformity in chord progressions is something that makes pop music what it is. It's much more than just "immediacy" that makes pop songs related to other pop songs. To pretend otherwise, well to put it nicely you have no musical ground to stand on.

The Beatles and Kate Bush obviously are light years ahead of Katy Perry, I would never argue otherwise. But they do the same bread and butter things in more exciting ways and in far better ways. There is not the serious difference in the basic makings of their songs from the average trashy pop on the radio, like you're trying to pretend. I enjoy pop music for what it is, I don't go the Pitchfork route and try to put it on a pedestal as a srz bzns art form. Pop music is fun and touching and catchy and can be great, but once you start down the pop music snobbery path of "Music sucks now, I miss when pop music was smart and pushed boundaries, etc" then you're opening yourself up for being shown how ridiculous that path is.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:44 AM   #55
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
This is music structure and music theory, what data do you want? They don't do numbers for this kind of stuff.

You misread my argument. I admitted I'm going to play the music snob. But there's a difference between a pop snob and a general music snob. Pop snobs are ridiculous just by definition. And if you don't believe my claim that I'm a pop fan far more than a classical music fan, would you like the link to my last.fm?
Your musical "analysis" is ludicrous. For instance the idea that everything with a song structure (as if there is one such thing in the first place)is inane.

BTW mentioning that you played piano through adolescence? That's your expertise? Really?
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:50 AM   #56
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by pov View Post
Your musical "analysis" is ludicrous. For instance the idea that everything with a song structure (as if there is one such thing in the first place)is inane.

BTW mentioning that you played piano through adolescence? That's your expertise? Really?
omg. lmao. you don't think songs have a structure? And my experience also comes from studies in musical theory, my dear. Honestly, if you don't even believe in structure (which is inherent in all forms of music, unless it's free form. And yes the song has it's own structure that's inherent to the form) then you're incapable of even participating in this debate. Music structure is not something that's open for debate, that you can believe in or not believe in. This isn't a debate about the Easter Bunny.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 01:53 AM   #57
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_st...pular_music%29

Structure. All this is part of the structure of a song. Every form of music has structure, from a symphony to a sonata to a pop song. I am still fucking dead at you questioning the existence of it. You can't just say songs don't have structure just 'cause, it's built into the DNA of the form. If they didn't have the same or similar structure each song would be a new fucking form of music. Please leave this to apoleb, who seems to have at least some idea of what he's talking about.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:15 AM   #58
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by pov View Post
Your musical "analysis" is ludicrous. For instance the idea that everything with a song structure (as if there is one such thing in the first place)is inane.


Of course every song has structure. And there's nothing wrong with him mentioning that he plays the piano/does music theory because that is how you learn about how music is constructed and composed.


Anyway, I think both dybbuk and apoleb raise good points. There's no doubt that the pop music of yesteryear is superior to pop of today, simply because the very best pop artists - from the beatles down to even Britney - were the ones who did take risks, experimented with different sounds, reinvented themselves and forged their own paths in music. Nowadays pop has been sucked into a vicious circle of the Rihannas, Katy Perrys and so on of this world just following trend after trend. I find most top 40 music in 2011 mindnumbingly boring and depressing.

But at the same time, as dybbuk said, pop music is pop music for a reason. All pop music is written to appeal to the masses and the vast majority of music back in the day wasn't much better and just as disposable as what we hear today.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:22 AM   #59
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by Apoleb View Post
Gangsta Paradise, Waterfalls, Creep, Kiss From a Rose, Have You Ever..., Always, You Gotta Be are STILL played regularly on the radio. These are songs that left their marks.
They did, sure, and so will Paparazzi, California Gurls, Rolling In The Deep and so on. They'll be heard on the radio in 2021. It's all cyclical. Just look at mainstream radio station playlists.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2011, 02:28 AM   #60
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Re: Does contemporary popular/mainstream music mostly suck?

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
One thing is certain, the shelf live of current music is very short.
Most people making music today are really entrepreneur first, and artist second.

In such climate, raw, artist talent takes a backseat to the presentation, the "act".


Look at the music (R&B, Soul, Rock 'n Roll, Reggae) from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's it can still be listened today, and the artist of those eras who are still around, can still perform.
These are real artists, not people coming together to perform an act, and quietly disappear when the targeted audience grows up and outgrows the music or the act.

Imagine how a rap musician can perform their music 10-15 years from now?
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel. In '11, it's more "business" than "show". It is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameOn View Post
Adele's the musical equivalent of tofu.
Wow. Good for you. Most people love the shit out of her. To me, she's cool for her retro vibe but I'm not like rushing to dl her songs. And I only know RITD and CP.
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