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View Poll Results: Bigger gap on clay

Henin over Serena 117 49.37%
Nadal over Federer 120 50.63%
Voters: 237. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #406
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

RG in 2004?

So Garbin > Serena ?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #407
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

to those pova fans who are descrediting Serena 2002 title have they seen who pova has beat so far this year or even last year
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #408
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

Peak Vikapower , completely misinterpreting the point of the thread (being comparing the gap between Serena - Henin vs Nadal - Federer) and instead starts spouting how much more dominant Justine is than Serena on clay (which isn't even up for dispute, and not what my post was about AT ALL ). I actually wonder whether he read the thread title or not, I am guessing not since the names Federer or Nadal did not enter his post once


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikapower View Post
^^ Jameka's statistic is falsified by the fact that Justine started peaking in RG in 2004 and you're seriously not going to use 2010 as some kind of indicator.
Irrelevant. As the thread title suggests, it's comparing the gap between RF-RN & JH-SW, in which case Nadal started his dominance from the first RG he ever played, which already sets the bar much higher for Federer than the one set by Justine for Serena. Nadal never had these "bad losses" at all throughout his career at RG.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikapower

You use 2003 because it suits your argument
I used 2003 because it's the one clay match where they are both nearest to their peak.

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Originally Posted by Vikapower

in a year where Serena had won the Australian Open hence was still in her prime.


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Originally Posted by Vikapower
Nice try but I'll tell it to you anyways, Serena's RG 2002 was a total fluke. First she beat her sister who was a total club-level amateur in that F missing shots while 5 centimeters away from the net.
Whatever you think. In my post I just looked at the statistics, while naturally, your "arguments" are based upon opinion and pure speculation. The fact is that Serena won Rome and RG that year, beating Henin at one and the defending champion at the other
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Originally Posted by Vikapower
even Victoria could have done the very same

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Originally Posted by Vikapower
Last in all, stop trying to make her RG relevant it's simply not.
Once again showing you have lacked the simple task of reading the thread title

Most of your post is pointless even quoting, because it has zero relevance to what is being discussed. You seem to think I am making an argument here that Serena is greater than Justine on clay, which is hilarious. Come back when you've obtained simple reading comprehension
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #409
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Vikapower View Post
^^ Jameka's statistic is falsified by the fact that Justine started peaking in RG in 2004 and you're seriously not going to use 2010 as some kind of indicator. Was far from being Justine's best season on clay actually. The three consecutive times Justine won RG from 2005 to 2007, Serena only has one QF --

In Justine's dominance in RG, she was citing a whole lot of injuries before RG, left ankle in 2006, ankle and lack of fitness apparently in 2005. The one time they met in 2007, Serena just lost flat and straight.



2007 Justine was far more superior to 2003. Serena took 4 and 3 in RG -- that's by a hair. There's no real argument that peak Justine would defeat any versions of peak/prime Serena on clay --

You use 2003 because it suits your argument and the match also went three but Rena tards always have a tendency to underrate 2007 because she was getting thumped left and right by Justine in a year where Serena had won the Australian Open hence was still in her prime. She just didn't have enough game with her one-dimensionality, it's as simple as that.

Roland-Garros also was the easiest win she had on Serena the whole year. 7 games, compared to the other majors where Serena at least made it even close. Hell, even on grass, Justine needed 3 sets to get past Serena -- I mean the gap between Serena and Justine on clay is quadruple the distance between us and the inhabitants of the planet Pluto.



Nice try but I'll tell it to you anyways, Serena's RG 2002 was a total fluke. First she beat her sister who was a total club-level amateur in that F missing shots while 5 centimeters away from the net.

Second most of the players she beat to make that final were extremely far from being potent on clay, bar Capriati in which it took her 3, Zvonareva et al. Pierce was hurt in 2001 and while 130th in the world still managed to make a QF in RG where Serena picked her apart with ease, 1 and 1. Venus showed couple years after that she was even much more of a fluke on clay, Serena's RG was as easy as it can be, even Victoria could have done the very same considering her better aptitudes than Serena on these slower surfaces.

Last in all, stop trying to make her RG relevant it's simply not. The last few years, she has not even backed up that W with at least another F even some consistent SF would have been good enough.
If 2010 isn't indicator for Juju..then we can as well disregard '12 for Serena..because she's in even worse form than Juju was in ' 10, no?!

Prime Serena NEVER loses to Juju on non-clay, go do your homework. If you think a prime Serena gets beaten Juju on grass, then you're more than deluded.

Vika, Vika...look who's left in the draw this year and Vika STILL couldn't get it done..and you wanna talk about her winning ' 02 RG?!
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 01:07 PM   #410
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
my post was not to say federer has greater achievements on clay than serena as it is already a given
my post only says federer is closer to nadal's achievements on clay than serena is to henin's achievements on clay
therefore the gap is closer
you cannot understand this because you are hung up on the fact federer cannot beat nadal
but the fact is serena also never beat henin on french open so i don't know why you keep on harping about that as if serena beat henin repeatedly and constantly on clay
TRUE, and well put.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 01:10 PM   #411
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
If 2010 isn't indicator for Juju..then we can as well disregard '12 for Serena..because she's in even worse form than Juju was in ' 10, no?!

Prime Serena NEVER loses to Juju on non-clay, go do your homework.
If you think a prime Serena gets beaten Juju on grass, then you're more than deluded.

Vika, Vika...look who's left in the draw this year and Vika STILL couldn't get it done..and you wanna talk about her winning ' 02 RG?!
NEVER ? On hardcourts, I doubt it. Most of times, Serena would win, but I think Justine could still snatch a few wins.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #412
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

Vikapower spreading the truth

As for "Prime Serena": That person existed a decade ago only for about 1.5 years and has never been seen again. Stop trying to keep that person relevant.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #413
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

The bigger gap is between Serena and Justine. Serena doesn't move so well on clay - not that she can't, but she isn't a natural mover on it. She likes to be explosive with that first step in getting to a ball, and the slippery surface doesn't allow her to get that grip on the court to take that step. Roger has at least pushed Rafa on many occasions in their clay court matches, whereas Justine would usually win going away against Serena. Roger moves a lot better on clay than Serena does so he's able to hang in with Rafa better.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #414
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

evening, matty......how are our friends at mtf?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 02:28 PM   #415
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by serenafan08 View Post
The bigger gap is between Serena and Justine. Serena doesn't move so well on clay - not that she can't, but she isn't a natural mover on it. She likes to be explosive with that first step in getting to a ball, and the slippery surface doesn't allow her to get that grip on the court to take that step. Roger has at least pushed Rafa on many occasions in their clay court matches, whereas Justine would usually win going away against Serena. Roger moves a lot better on clay than Serena does so he's able to hang in with Rafa better.
but still rafa pwns fed on clay.....
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #416
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

Roger can't beat the enhancing substances. It's an unfair comparison.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #417
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by J4m3ka View Post
Peak Vikapower , completely misinterpreting the point of the thread (being comparing the gap between Serena - Henin vs Nadal - Federer) and instead starts spouting how much more dominant Justine is than Serena on clay (which isn't even up for dispute, and not what my post was about AT ALL ). I actually wonder whether he read the thread title or not, I am guessing not since the names Federer or Nadal did not enter his post once
Yes I read the title oriented my answer according to what I understood from your post -- if your post if off-subject then mines would forcefully be. So just be ranting against yourself.

Quote:
Irrelevant. As the thread title suggests, it's comparing the gap between RF-RN & JH-SW, in which case Nadal started his dominance from the first RG he ever played, which already sets the bar much higher for Federer than the one set by Justine for Serena. Nadal never had these "bad losses" at all throughout his career at RG.
Nadal started goating at age 17 when Justine was at 21+. Way to try to make a valid comparison. It's obvious the longer a player stays on the tour before hitting their peak the most bad losses he/she is going to have.

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I used 2003 because it's the one clay match where they are both nearest to their peak.
No it's because according to you Serena fans, Serena was still in declining phase in 2007.

Quote:
Whatever you think. In my post I just looked at the statistics, while naturally, your "arguments" are based upon opinion and pure speculation. The fact is that Serena won Rome and RG that year, beating Henin at one and the defending champion at the other
I used the draw. You want to talk about statistics ? The average rank of the opponents Serena faced in RG 2002 is 75.14 -- Justine was still just rising on clay in 2002 what an achievement.

Last edited by Vikapower : Jun 6th, 2012 at 04:17 PM.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #418
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

Why are people complaining about the death of the clay field in the early 2000's? When the likes of Na Li, Safina, Schiavone, Ivanovic, Myskina, etc., have all won or done well in the past few years? Big difference when Mary Pierce, Conchita Martinez, ASV, Graf, Capriati, Hingis were all reaching finals and/or winning the event back in the late 90's/early 00's.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #419
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
If 2010 isn't indicator for Juju..then we can as well disregard '12 for Serena..because she's in even worse form than Juju was in ' 10, no?!
Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. I said disregard Justine's 2010 clay season while you try globalize on whole of Serena's 2012. Nice try but doesn't work.

2010 Justine to me and end 2011/2012 Serena worth approximately the same in terms of level of play. Both made a GS F and won a few titles, both showed some abilities and very mediocre play from match to match or tournament to tournament. Serena isn't worst than Justine 2010, Serena isn't playing any differently or bad from what she was before, the competition is just on whole lot different level.

Quote:
Prime Serena NEVER loses to Juju on non-clay, go do your homework. If you think a prime Serena gets beaten Juju on grass, then you're more than deluded.
Rena won the AO 2007 playing the greatest display of tennis in a GS F according to her fans. You really gotta bring some serious more evidence to contradict the fact that Serena wasn't still in her prime in 2007.

Rena tards are quick to advance the Sarin short decline theory but if you estimate that decline to be between 2004 to 2007, she still has 2 majors including one she won being ranked over the top 50 and 1 GS F. She also made 5 consecutive GS QF up until AO 2008.

Ok, even if we accepted the famous decline theory how long did it last ? Serena hit a huge peak in AO 2007 and beat Justine in Miami 2007. You Rena fans are just too desperate, from there on now Justine was just too good.

Serena was winning 2 majors a year in a weak field from 2008 to 2010 (though in 2008 she only had 1) whilst in end 2011 and 2012 she still has none. Serena had 1 GS and 1 GS F from 2004 to 2006 -- 1 GS QF.

Even if you cut it per 2 years, 2004-2005 2006-2007 -- She has at least 1 GS F and/or W during these this grouped period -- yeah she was declining or on the decline phase, just whatever rocks your boat.

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Vika, Vika...look who's left in the draw this year and Vika STILL couldn't get it done..and you wanna talk about her winning ' 02 RG?!
Because Pierce who was still recovering from injury, lost 6-1 6-1 in the QF and a Venus Williams who reached a fluky RG F was competition ?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #420
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Vikapower View Post
Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. I said disregard Justine's 2010 clay season while you try globalize on whole of Serena's 2012. Nice try but doesn't work.

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Rena won the AO 2007 playing the greatest display of tennis in a GS F according to her fans. You really gotta bring some serious more evidence to contradict the fact that Serena wasn't still in her prime in 2007.
Are you really saying Serena of 2007 was her prime? She actually looked good at the beginning of the year, even until the French Open. But, the injury that happened against Hantuchova at Wimbledon is when things went downhill. She had a nasty fall on her thumb that affected her ankle too. She only won that match because the rain saved her. She didn't practice that entire summer and picked up a racket, according to her, just a week before the Open. She was in a thumb cast for almost 2 months up until that point. Because of this, she couldn't practice and picked up a few pounds over the summer. There is no way in hell Serena was in match shape the second half of the year considering she had the ankle and even more serious thumb injury from the fall at Wimbledon.

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Rena tards are quick to advance the Sarin short decline theory but if you estimate that decline to be between 2004 to 2007, she still has 2 majors including one she won being ranked over the top 50 and 1 GS F. She also made 5 consecutive GS QF up until AO 2008.
2004, she was just coming back from a major surgery. She looked good, but not even close to her 2003 level. A surgically repaired knee is NEVER the same and considering movement was such a big part of her game, the fact that her movement wasn't the same in 2004, is a big deal. And, she played like 11 tournaments in 2005 and the following year with losses to the likes of Hantuchova and Jill Craybas at Wimbledon. Those were the worst years of her career marred with injuries and being out of shape. Do you want the pictures posted from those years?

Quote:
Ok, even if we accepted the famous decline theory how long did it last ? Serena hit a huge peak in AO 2007 and beat Justine in Miami 2007. You Rena fans are just too desperate, from there on now Justine was just too good.
Again, Serena was in form the first half of 2007, even at the French Open. The fall at Wimbledon is when the decline happened, she couldn't practice, put on a few pounds, and went into the US Open that year with no matchplay so her endurance was not as where it was before and she barely practiced going into the event.

And, Justine was too good? If, this were the case she should have continued playing. When Serena got back to optimum shape and fitness in 2008, she crushed Justine in Miami in 2008 easily with a bagel. It is not Serena's fault that Justine decided to call it quits. She was unmotivated and not in best shape physically, so even if she did decide to play, Serena would have been the least of her worries considering she didn't want it anymore.

Quote:
Serena was winning 2 majors a year in a weak field from 2008 to 2010 (though in 2008 she only had 1) whilst in end 2011 and 2012 she still has none. Serena had 1 GS and 1 GS F from 2004 to 2006 -- 1 GS QF.
Serena won her first 7 majors with one of the best fields in women's tennis beating Capriati, Hingis, Davenport, Graf, Venus, Mauresmo, Henin, Clijsters, Seles, etc. So, don't use the 'weak field' theory, considering Serena has excelled in one of the more dominant and consistent fields of top players in recent memory.

Even if you cut it per 2 years, 2004-2005 2006-2007 -- She has at least 1 GS F and/or W during these this grouped period -- yeah she was declining or on the decline phase, just whatever rocks your boat.



Quote:
Because Pierce who was still recovering from injury, lost 6-1 6-1 in the QF and a Venus Williams who reached a fluky RG F was competition ?
So, if Sharapova wins RG this year, it is a fluke right? Even if she beats Errani in the final? Serena beat two former RG champions, including the defending champion in winning her lone RG title, and has beaten 4 Top 10 players here. Sharapova hasn't beaten 1 Top 10 player here, EVER.
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