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View Poll Results: Bigger gap on clay

Henin over Serena 117 49.58%
Nadal over Federer 119 50.42%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 07:06 AM   #376
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
for me it is a cumulative effort. i can't just look at one statistic and make my conclusion
henin has 1-1 h2h on serena on grass, was able to beat serena on wimbledon and reached 2 finals, winning 0
serena has 1-4 h2h on henin on clay, was never able to beat henin in french open and reached 1 final, winning 1

so based on these stats for me henin just is a bit closer to serena on grass than serena is to henin on clay
it's not such a big difference but i look at the stats and i make that conclusion
Okay..your conclusion, fair enough. Crazy thing is this though: people blah blah about how Serena was never good enough to meet Juju on clay, yada yada...but isn't even crazier that Serena and Juju only played twice on grass?!
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #377
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
Okay..your conclusion, fair enough. Crazy thing is this though: people blah blah about how Serena was never good enough to meet Juju on clay, yada yada...but isn't even crazier that Serena and Juju only played twice on grass?!
but there are much fewer grass tournaments than clay tournaments. look at federer and nadal meeting each other 14 times on clay but only 3 times on grass when they are the top 2 players on both grass and clay for the past decade
so it's not really crazy if you think about it
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 07:09 AM   #378
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
but isn't even crazier that Serena and Juju only played twice on grass?!
obvious, there are only 2-3 grass-tournaments a year with wimbledon the only big one

now compare this to the clay season...
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 07:17 AM   #379
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 07:18 AM   #380
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
but there are much fewer grass tournaments than clay tournaments. look at federer and nadal meeting each other 14 times on clay but only 3 times on grass when they are the top 2 players on both grass and clay for the past decade
so it's not really crazy if you think about it
Indeed..
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:26 AM   #381
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
but again what are the statistics that prove that henin's gap is smaller against serena than nadal over federer?
if you're going to harp on H2H again then you have to also state that murray is a better hard courter than federer if H2H on a surface is your end all be all
fact is you have no statistics to actually back your claim

also you choose to ignore that during his peak years federer was able to stake VERY competitive matches against nadal on red clay and took nadal to 5 sets in rome
he also bageled nadal on clay during his peak

federer at his very peak can make a match competitive against nadal on clay
same as you claim serena at her peak can compete well against henin on clay
Very competitive doesn't mean win. Close but no cigar.

The gap between Nadal and his contemporaries on clay is very large. Here are some facts:

- He won French Open at 18 playing there for first time.
- He's won 6 out of the 7 since played there.
- He has the longest match winning streak on clay.

Get back to me when Justine compiles records like that on clay. This isn't even about anyone else, this is purely about how good Nadal actually is on clay and the gap between him and his peers (Federer included).

Justine never had that gap, let alone against someone like Serena. That's why this should be a no-brainer. Federer has no chance against Nadal at his peak on clay. Are the 4 French Open finals not evidence enough?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:34 AM   #382
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

^^ and what "statistic" makes you believe serena has her chance against henin at her peak on clay?
serena is 0 for 9 tries to even make the SEMIFINALS since 2003
0 for 10 to make FINALS since 2002

...

henin is more vulnerable than nadull on clay i agree but at henin's peak i don't see any evidence supporting that serena can make the match competitive against henin much less win it like you suppose
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #383
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
^^ and what "statistic" makes you believe serena has her chance against henin at her peak on clay?
serena is 0 for 9 tries to even make the SEMIFINALS since 2003
0 for 10 to make FINALS since 2002

...

henin is more vulnerable than nadull on clay i agree but at henin's peak i don't see any evidence supporting that serena can make the match competitive against henin much less win it like you suppose
"Justine is more vulnerable" + Serena has proven herself on clay (against the best) as French Open champion = Narrower gap.

You need more evidence than that? Unless if you can go back in time and force these players to play on clay at their peaks, it's not going to happen.

Enough.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #384
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Very competitive doesn't mean win. Close but no cigar.

The gap between Nadal and his contemporaries on clay is very large. Here are some facts:

- He won French Open at 18 playing there for first time.
- He's won 6 out of the 7 since played there.
- He has the longest match winning streak on clay.

Get back to me when Justine compiles records like that on clay. This isn't even about anyone else, this is purely about how good Nadal actually is on clay and the gap between him and his peers (Federer included).

Justine never had that gap, let alone against someone like Serena. That's why this should be a no-brainer. Federer has no chance against Nadal at his peak on clay. Are the 4 French Open finals not evidence enough?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #385
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
"Justine is more vulnerable" + Serena has proven herself on clay (against the best) as French Open champion = Narrower gap.

You need more evidence than that? Unless if you can go back in time and force these players to play on clay at their peaks, it's not going to happen.

Enough.
who is the best that serena has proven herself against on clay as french open champion??? VENUS???? LOL
venus who NEVER made another french open final again?
NO SCRATCH THAT, venus who NEVER made another french open semifinal again?
federer won against soderling on his maiden french open title
AND soderling made the final again immediately next year

evidence is in the list of all time greats on clay federer much closer to nadal than serena is to henin

ENOUGH!
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:46 AM   #386
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
who is the best that serena has proven herself against on clay as french open champion??? VENUS???? LOL
venus who NEVER made another french open final again?
NO SCRATCH THAT, venus who NEVER made another french open semifinal again?
federer won against soderling on his maiden french open title
AND soderling made the final again immediately next year

evidence is in the list of all time greats on clay federer much closer to nadal than serena is to henin

ENOUGH!
this...clay competition in early pre-peak Henin 00's was simply pathetic on WTA tour. RG was up for grabs for anyone who hit a hot streak, just like now basically. Williams were just hot commodities at the time and managed to take advantage of it. End of
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #387
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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this...clay competition in early pre-peak Henin 00's was simply pathetic on WTA tour. RG was up for grabs for anyone who hit a hot streak, just like now basically. Williams were just hot commodities at the time and managed to take advantage of it. End of
Good..only if you admit to this same logic when Masha beats Errani in the finals of RG.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 08:54 AM   #388
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
who is the best that serena has proven herself against on clay as french open champion??? VENUS???? LOL
venus who NEVER made another french open final again?
NO SCRATCH THAT, venus who NEVER made another french open semifinal again?
federer won against soderling on his maiden french open title
AND soderling made the final again immediately next year

evidence is in the list of all time greats on clay federer much closer to nadal than serena is to henin

ENOUGH!
How about Capriati, the defending and Australian Open champion. You know the one who made French Open semi-final on her debut at 14? The one who beat Steffi Graf on clay to win Olympic Gold?

It's funny how you conveniently forgot about her. Henin reached French Open semis in 2001. Not Serena's problem that she lost early the next year.

And considering how you keep calling Nadal "nadull", it shows where your agenda lies and maturity is like.
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 09:00 AM   #389
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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How about Capriati, the defending and Australian Open champion. You know the one who made French Open semi-final on her debut at 14? The one who beat Steffi Graf on clay to win Olympic Gold?

It's funny how you conveniently forgot about her. Henin reached French Open semis in 2001. Not Serena's problem that she lost early the next year.

And considering how you keep calling Nadal "nadull", it shows where your agenda lies and maturity is like.
okay so the players that serena beat on french open matter even if she did not beat henin
but the other great clay players federer beat on french open to consistenly reach finals with nadal do not matter just because he could not beat nadal?
the fact that at 30 last yr federer beat djokovic who had just won 2 clay masters against nadal doesn't matter because he could not beat nadal
but the fact that serena beat capriati is supposed to matter...?

what does it matter what i call nadal? how is it relevant to the matter here?
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Old Jun 6th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #390
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
okay so the players that serena beat on french open matter even if she did not beat henin
but the other great clay players federer beat on french open to consistenly reach finals with nadal do not matter just because he could not beat nadal?
the fact that at 30 last yr federer beat djokovic who had just won 2 clay masters against nadal doesn't matter because he could not beat nadal
but the fact that serena beat capriati is supposed to matter...?

what does it matter what i call nadal? how is it relevant to the matter here?
You can say and think whatever you want but Nadal is arguably the best player ever on clay and at his best none of his contemporaries stand a chance against him on clay.

You already admitted that Justine is more vulnerable on clay which means that on any given day she could lose a match that Nadal wouldn't. That already suggests that the gap between Nadal and Federer is greater than Justine and Serena. Why are you wasting my time when you already admitted you're wrong?
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