Get rid of round-robin - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Oct 29th, 2011, 11:20 AM   #1
country flag Papillon.
?
 
Papillon.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,709
Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute Papillon. has a reputation beyond repute
Get rid of round-robin

The round-robin format as it is is a disgraceful competition format. The only benefits it has are gimmicks: that there are more matches so that the WTA makes more $$$$ (and, THEORETICALLY, people are more entertained due to the greater number of matches), and that it is "unique" and different from what we normally see.

The issue I have here, foremost, is the lack of integrity in the system. When the top eight players qualify for the season-ending championships of their sport, they should not need to be treated to multiple chances to remain in a competition. This is what round-robin allows, and while you can apply subjectivity to the situation in saying Stosur could draw Azarenka in the first round of the tournament and be in an 'unfair' position due to her poor past record against her, the round-robin format in itself is the epitome of unfairness.

Generalised, the issue with the integrity of round-robin is that one match can have adverse effects that do not apply solely to the match itself. Round-robin creates little messy scenarios that players themselves have the ability to affect in an entirely unfair way; in particular, today, Petra Kvitova, as a player who had already qualified for the semifinals and had guaranteed her advancement to the next round regardless of her third round-robin match, had the ability to lose one set and attempt to win from that point, which would have determined whether someone OTHER than Petra Kvitova herself would find herself advancing to the next round. I am speaking entirely hypothetically here and would not accuse any players of carrying out such a plan, but I am highlighting the fact that these conditions can be taken advantage of and that the issue is that each match creates and effects just as many conditions as it does the actual elimination of the loser and advancement of the winner.

Last year, as I recall, Kim Clijsters had the ability to hand-pick her semifinal opponent by either tanking or attempting to win her third round-robin match. Again, we are only looking at this hypothetically and not from the exact possibilities of the scenario given. It is this power that is given to the players and gimmicky percentage statistics that makes me dubious of the round-robin format.

I feel that the very top players in the world should not need multiple chances. In a tournament as big as the season-ending championships, it feels to me like they should go big or go home, rather than be given the opportunity to play up to TWO awful matches and lose them both (in the case of advancing to the semifinals as the second player in a 3-0, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2 group outcome), and still end up the winner of the tournament.

There is also the issue of the WTA's foolish scheduling of this tournament. Deliberately holding matches between a player who has already played a match and a player who has not is rubbish, and while this is not a problem exclusive to round-robin, I wanted to complain about it anyway.

Last but not least, there is the anticlimatic feeling of the possibility of the final being a match that has already taken place during the week. Am I the only one who has an issue with this?

As for possible solutions or alternatives, I would suppose there are none other than changing the format of the tournament back to direct knockout. Direct knockout between the top eight players only provides seven matches throughout the course of the week, and I would suppose this is problematic from a marketing standpoint. The format could be reverted to direct knockout with sixteen players as it once was before, but looking at it subjectively the quality of the players in the 9-16 race bracket -- or lack thereof -- is slightly concerning. Again, from a marketing standpoint, it would be regrettable to lose your #2 player to the #14 player, or to end up with a Peng - Bartoli SF, but that is creating excuses for the best players when they do not manage to bring their best games to the tournament.

The best players in the world should be expected to bring their best games to these matches, and when they are given multiple chances and there are a flurry of conditions, rather than the strict outcome of having to win the match or be absolutely eliminated, it is blatant that players will NOT give it all they have. This is disappointing from everyone's point of view, even when the WTA benefits from more matches being played.

Less is more. Go big or go home.
__________________

Last edited by Papillon. : Oct 29th, 2011 at 12:33 PM.
Papillon. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Oct 29th, 2011, 11:28 AM   #2
Mistress of Evil
mean-spirited, vicious bitch witch
 
Mistress of Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,658
Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute Mistress of Evil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

I really cannot make myself read that Shvedbarilescu-esque essay but I agree bring back the draw format!
Mistress of Evil is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 11:44 AM   #3
country flag Matt01
Senior Member
 
Matt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 14,260
Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papillon. View Post
Get rid of round-robin

Agreed.
Matt01 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #4
country flag LCS
Senior Member
 
LCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,631
LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute LCS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

__________________
Tennis Tipping
Singles
W: (12) Australian Open (11) 50K Monzon, Toronto F: (12) Montreal (09) 25K Redding, Bali YEC (08) Memphis, Stanford, 100K Krakow SF: (13) Toronto (12) Estoril Open (09) Roland Garros, Stanford (08) Auckland, Rome, Eastbourne, New Haven
Doubles W: (11) Hobart (09) 25K Redding (08) Doha, Istanbul (07) Estoril Open F: (12) Pattaya, Roland Garros, Stanford (11) Guangzhou(08) Memphis, Wimbledon, New Haven (07) Bali SF: (11) Trnava (10) Stuttgart (08) Budapest (07)Birmingham, US Open QF: (12) Australian Open (11) Roland Garros
LCS is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:13 PM   #5
country flag Chaosm21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,030
Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of Chaosm21 has much to be proud of
Re: Get rid of round-robin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papillon. View Post
The round-robin format as it is is a disgraceful competition format. The only benefits it has are gimmicks: that there are more matches so that the WTA makes more $$$$ (and, THEORETICALLY, people are more entertained due to the greater number of matches), and that it is "unique" and different from what we normally see.

The issue I have here, foremost, is the lack of integrity in the system. When the top eight players qualify for the season-ending championships of their sport, they should not need to be treated to multiple chances to remain in a competition. This is what round-robin allows, and while if you apply subjectivity to the situation in saying Stosur could draw Azarenka in the first round of the tournament and be in an 'unfair' position due to her poor past record against her, the round-robin format in itself is the epitome of unfairness.

Generalised, the issue with the integrity of round-robin is that one match can have adverse effects that do not apply solely to the match itself. Round-robin creates little messy scenarios that players themselves have the ability to affect in an entirely unfair way; in particular, today, Petra Kvitova, as a player who had already qualified for the semifinals and had guaranteed her advancement to the next round regardless of her third round-robin match, had the ability to lose one set and attempt to win from that point, which would have determined whether someone OTHER than Petra Kvitova herself would find herself advancing to the next round. I am speaking entirely hypothetically here and would not accuse any players of carrying out such a plan, but I am highlighting the fact that these conditions can be taken advantage of and that the issue is that each match creates and effects just as many conditions as it does the actual elimination of the loser and advancement of the winner.

Last year, as I recall, Kim Clijsters had the ability to hand-pick her semifinal opponent by either tanking or attempting to win her third round-robin match. Again, we are only looking at this hypothetically and not from the exact possibilities of the scenario given. It is this power that is given to the players and gimmicky percentage statistics that makes me dubious of the round-robin format.

I feel that the very top players in the world should not need multiple chances. In a tournament as big as the season-ending championships, it feels to me like they should go big or go home, rather than be given the opportunity to play up to TWO awful matches and lose them both (in the case of advancing to the semifinals as the second player in a 3-0, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2 group outcome), and still end up the winner of the tournament.

There is also the issue of the WTA's foolish scheduling of this tournament. Deliberately holding matches between a player who has already played a match and a player who has not is rubbish, and while this is not a problem exclusive to round-robin, I wanted to complain about it anyway.

Last but not least, there is the anticlimatic feeling of the possibility of the final being a match that has already taken place during the week. Am I the only one who has an issue with this?

As for possible solutions or alternatives, I would suppose there are none other than changing the format of the tournament back to direct knockout. Direct knockout between the top eight players only provides seven matches throughout the course of the week, and I would suppose this is problematic from a marketing standpoint. The format could be reverted to direct knockout with sixteen players as it once was before, but looking at it subjectively the quality of the players in the 9-16 race bracket -- or lack thereof -- is slightly concerning. Again, from a marketing standpoint, it would be regrettable to lose your #2 player to the #14 player, or to end up with a Peng - Bartoli SF, but that is creating excuses for the best players when they do not manage to bring their best games to the tournament.

The best players in the world should be expected to bring their best games to these matches, and when they are given multiple chances and there are a flurry of conditions, rather than the strict outcome of having to win the match or be absolutely eliminated, it is blatant that players will NOT give it all they have. This is disappointing from everyone's point of view, even when the WTA benefits from more matches being played.

Less is more. Go big or go home.
This is the only tournament where only the best players participate and show some interesting matches. I want 15 Matches in 6 days and not 7 in 4 days.
Chaosm21 is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:19 PM   #6
country flag Feyd
Senior Member
 
Feyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 1,709
Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future Feyd has a brilliant future
Re: Get rid of round-robin

Quote:
The round-robin format as it is is a disgraceful competition format.
I stopped reading here.
Feyd is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:21 PM   #7
country flag Beat
Senior Member
 
Beat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica
Posts: 28,083
Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute Beat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

i totally disagree. it's a special tournament and RR works fine and actually spices things up. it has a special atmosphere, too, and it would be a realy pity if they'd destroy this.

also, in your essay, i think you underestimate the players' inner drive to win every single match (bar azarenka, obviously); there's a lot of money and ranking points at stake. you also overestimate a player's chance to "manipulate" the outcome of a match. it's really not that easy.
__________________

__________________

__________________

Beat is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:27 PM   #8
country flag Matt01
Senior Member
 
Matt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 14,260
Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat View Post
also, in your essay, i think you underestimate the players' inner drive to win every single match (bar azarenka, obviously); there's a lot of money and ranking points at stake. you also overestimate a player's chance to "manipulate" the outcome of a match. it's really not that easy.

Not quite fair to single out Azarenka when lots of other players have tanked their unimportant RR matches before.
I can see why that format has some appeal to some people but for a serious competition like the YEC it is just not useful IMO.
Matt01 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:30 PM   #9
country flag laurie
Senior Member
 
laurie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,507
laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute laurie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

I prefer round robin, it's only once a year and things happen in life. Radwanska should have got the job done but didn't. But then again, Zvonareva should have got the job done against Radwanska.

The men have had round robin for as long as I can remember, I like it.
__________________
check my website

http://www.classictennismatches.net/
laurie is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:35 PM   #10
country flag Apoleb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,181
Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute Apoleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

No, this is a lot more fun. Even the tanks are fun.
Apoleb is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #11
country flag King Halep
♥ Si Si Simona Si Si Si
 
King Halep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 29,806
King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute King Halep has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

people are getting too precious about this. football uses group format all the time. one could argue that the champions league has too many meaningless group matches but fans still watch them. na's last two matches were more disgrace than healthy coke's tank but noone seems to mind. with ticket prices so cheap, its about £3, i cant see why too many people would complain.
King Halep is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:41 PM   #12
country flag Keadz
Senior Member
 
Keadz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,287
Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute Keadz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

I like it
__________________
STOSUR HSIEH NICULESCU HALEP LI

DATE-KRUMM ERAKOVIC KUZNETSOVA BARTY SANDERS

ROGOWSKA ZAKOPALOVA PIRONKOVA JANKOVIC DELLACQUA
Keadz is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 12:58 PM   #13
country flag TheBoiledEgg
Moderator - Challengers & Juniors
 
TheBoiledEgg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: in Cloud Cuckoo Land
Posts: 177,836
TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute TheBoiledEgg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

only people who dont like it cant figure out who qualifies and who doesnt
__________________
Good luck in 2015to my favsKIRILENKO*Petrova*Zvonareva*Kuznetsova*Sharapova*Dushevina*Chakvetadze*Kleybanova*Bychkova*Vesnina*Shvedova*Kudravytseva
Puchkova*Kulikova*Pavlyuchenkova*Makarova*Panova*Pervak*Diatchenko*Pivovarova*Gavrilova*Putintseva*Khromacheva*Gasparyan*Leykin a*Zhuk*PotapovaAZARENKA *Govortsova
MINELLA LARRIERETsurenkoAlize Lim*El Tabakh*Robson*Cirstea*Juhaszova*Zanevska*Broady*Bouchard*Savic*M irza*Pennetta*Hantuchova*Cibulkova*Ivanovic*Fitzpatrick*Remondina*Domachowska*Flipkens*Hercog*Hofmanova*Schoofs*Cet kovska *Svitolina*Pliskova's*Rus
http://www.twitter.com/TheBoiledEgg
TheBoiledEgg is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 01:03 PM   #14
country flag Hurley
Enemy of Art
 
Hurley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: location, location
Posts: 13,234
Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute Hurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papillon. View Post
The round-robin format as it is is a disgraceful competition format. The only benefits it has are gimmicks: that there are more matches so that the WTA makes more $$$$ (and, THEORETICALLY, people are more entertained due to the greater number of matches) [...] Less is more.
8 player round robin: 12 group matches + 2 SF + 1 F = 15 matches

16 player knockout: 8 1R + 4 QF + 2 SF + 1 F = 15 matches

Shut it down, kid.
__________________
I am on der Tvitter, accumulating haters. https://twitter.com/Hurleytennis
Hurley is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th, 2011, 01:13 PM   #15
country flag Matt01
Senior Member
 
Matt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 14,260
Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute Matt01 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Get rid of round-robin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurley View Post
8 player round robin: 12 group matches + 2 SF + 1 F = 15 matches

16 player knockout: 8 1R + 4 QF + 2 SF + 1 F = 15 matches

Shut it down, kid.

Comparing apples and oranges

8 player RR = 15 matches

8 player knockout = 7 matches

Matt01 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios