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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 12:49 PM   #1
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1922 Australian Draw

Hello all,

When the Blast started almost a decade ago we began to put together Grand Slam results. Starting from scratch, we slowly built up many results from a variety of sources.

Happily at this point we have a source (the Grand Slam record book) that puts all the Grand Slam results together in one book. It's mightily impressive. Having said that, there are some errrors in the book in my view, as well as missing information. I will be the first to confess that our own results have numerous errors as well.

My proposal here is to slowly and systematically rework the Slam results to get as close to perfection as possible. I'd like to take one event and year at a time. As we "clear" or give a "thumbs up" as a group we can move on to the next year.

The eventual result will be a clean slam section that we can use to work outwards from and use for the yearly results threads.

Everyone is invited to provide feedback. The more experts we have involved the better the end product will be.

Last edited by Rollo : Jan 30th, 2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #2
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

What I have at this point for 1922:

Dates: December 1-9
Site: White City, (Rushcutter's Bay) Sydney.
Surface: Grass
---------------------------------------------

Singles (Draw=15)

1st Round

Mall Molesworth d. Annie Gray 7-5 6-3
Marjorie Mountain d. Mrs GB Stevens 6-4 6-3
Syd Carr d. Miss Rock 6-2 1-6 8-6
Gwen Utz d. Esme Doddemeade 6-4 6-2

Esna Boyd d. Floris St.George 6-4 6-1
Jessie Watson d. Mrs M Grant 6-3 6-2
Sylvia Lance d. Lorna Bull 6-3 6-1
Mary Elliott-bye

Quarterfinals

Molesworth d. Mountain 6-4 6-4
Utz d. Carr default
Boyd d. Watson 6-3 6-2
Lance d. Elliot 6-1 6-2

Semifinals

Boyd d. Lance 6-4 10-8
Molesworth d. Utz 6-2 6-3

Final
Mall Molesworth d. Esna Boyd 6-3 10-8
-------------------------------------------------

Doubles (Draw=9)

Preliminary Round

Annie Gray/Nellie Lloyd d. Lorna Bull/Mary Elliott 6-4 6-3

Quarterfinals

Esna Boyd/Marjorie Mountain d. Mrs Docker/Miss Schultze 6-1 6-4
Mall Molesworth/Jessie Watson d. Syd Carr/Esme Doddemeade 7-5 4-6 6-3
Irene Forbes-Smith/Sylvia Lance d. Gray/Lloyd 5-7 13-11 6-2
Floris St.George/Gwen Utz d. Daisy Garland/D Menzies 6-3 6-2

Semifinals

Boyd/Mountain d. Molesworth/Watson 7-5 6-3
St.George/Utz d. Forbes Smith/Lance default

Final
Esna Boyd/Marjorie Mountain d. Floris St.George/Gwen Utz 1-6 6-4 7-5
-------------------------------------------------

Mixed Doubles (Draw=15)

1st Round

Gwen Utz/Harold Utz-bye
Sylvia Lance/Stewart Henderson d. Mary Elliott/Jack Clemenger 6-0 6-0
Marjorie Mountain/Rupert Wertheim d. Lorna Bull/Keith Poulton 3-6 6-4 6-3
Hazel Webber/Arthur Yencken d. Minnie Goodman/Bruce Dive 6-0 9-7

Esna Boyd/John Hawks d. Syd Carr/Dudley Bullough 6-4 6-0
Mall Molesworth/Leslie Baker d. Mitchell/Prosper Sandral 6-1 7-5
Jessie Watson/Edward Jordan d. Grace Paterson/William Sheehan 6-4 6-3
Annie Gray/Percy Lane d. Floris St. George/Frank Peach 8-6 5-7 10-8

Quarterfinals

Utz/Utz d. Lance/Henderson default
Mountain/Wertheim d. Webber/Yencken 6-0 6-2
Boyd/Hawkes d. Molesworth/Baker 6-2 5-7 6-2
Watson/Jordan d. Gray/Love ????? (probable default)

Semifinals

Utz/Utz d. Mountain/Wertheim 6-3 6-3
Boyd/Hawkes d. Watson/Jordan 6-3 6-3

Final
Esna Boyd/Jack Hawkes d. Gwen Utz/Harold Utz 6-1 6-1
-------------------------------------------------

Draw notes and resolves:

The official site does not have the complete draw for any of the five events. It also lists our 2 missing Mixed QF results as byes, clearly an oversight. It also has an incorrect doubles semifinal result. All results stemming from this site should be double-checked.

Wednesday 6th and Thursday 7th washed out and tournament didn't finish until Saturday 9th December. The backup in play explains the defaults in the doubles events.

The Sydney Morning Herald, in its Dec 9 edition, indicated that Miss Lance had to default in the women's doubles and the mixed with her partner Henderson. The reason given was her departure for New Zealand. Note that the rand Slam book and official Aussie sites have a score for this semi.However, unless these scores can be verified in another source (such as anewspaper) the default in the semis of the doubles is the likely score. See the following:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...ore*%7C*ignore*

Names:

*Many sources use the name John Clemenger. Jack was his nickname. For now I'm going with Jack.

*WB Dive (Wilfred Bruce) went by his middle name.

*Peg Menzies (in the mixed draw) in newspapers as D Menzies. Miss D. Menzies is not 'Peg'. Miss AG 'Peg' Menzies was a junior NSW player in the 1930s.

*Some sources list Gladys Paterson (rather than Grace Paterson). The SMH uses Patterson and Paterson. GeeTee writes that the 1922 entrant here is Gladys Paterson, daughter of "Banjo" Paterson, the famous writer of "Waltzing Matilda." Other newspaper sources thrughout 1922 back this up. See http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...ore*%7C*ignore*

*Miss Schultze (sometimes spelled differently) could be Marjorie Schultze (born 1894, Mrs Bertram BM Webb from 1930) but no definite proof.

* Mrs GB Stevens is most likely Mrs George B Stevens (nee Cora Smith) but this is not verifiable at this time.

* The official site has Lorna Utz. It is wrong. It is Gwen (Gwendolyn). There were two Utz's. Lorna Utz (nee Bull-listed in the 1922 singles draw) was maried to Leslie Utz in 1924. Gwen (nee Chiplin) was married to her mixed partner H. S. "Barney" Utz. This is the pair that traveled to England and played Wimbledon in 1925. Major thanks go out to GeeTee for pointing this out.

* Miss H Webber was from New South Wales.

-------------------------------------------------

Summary

Molesworth's variety, power and precision stood her in good stead during the tournament. She defeated Utz who was a crafty tactician, but her courtcraft failed against Molesworth's power and versatility. Boyd survived in the other semi despite being 2-4 down in each set against Lance. In the final Molesworth played the bigger points better as Boyd had several set points at 7-6 in the 2nd set. According to the Adelaide Advertiser "The final of the ladies singles...was throughly enjoyed by all. The rallies were long and frequent, and the quality high class. Miss Molesworth's service and backhand were superior to those of Miss Boyd." Boyd excelled in crosscourt forehands, but Mall's crosscourt backhand winners were more frequent.

Gray and Lloyd held a match point in the ladies QF with Forbes-Smith and Lance. Lance then had to default in the next match (and the mixed) to go to New Zealand.

The doubles final was most exciting. The NSW pair of St George/Utz led 4-3. The next game, with Utz serving, had spectators in a fever pitch, as deuce was called 16 times. Boyd/Molesworth won the key game and the minutes later the title. "Mrs Utz played the game of her life", while Mall set up Boyd at net with her great returns. Boyd was noticeably tired from the singles final.

5,000 came on finals day. Earlier week figures were between 2 and 3,000.
-------------------------------------------------
Sources:

GeeTee
Andrew Tas
The Grand Slam Record Book

Trove Australian Newspapers online, especially the Sydney Morning Herald and Adelaide Advertiser.

Last edited by Rollo : Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:11 PM.
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 01:02 PM   #3
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

And here all this time I thought this was the first year Margaret Smith won the title. Nobody played. Are you sure? To give some reference, I believe that same year Gloria Swanson made a silent film with Rudolph Valentino- the only time they appeared together. No, seriously, the Blast is like to place other for looking up stats and records. It's really incredible that way. So was the tournament held in December, or January?
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 01:04 PM   #4
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

What needs to be vetted:

Is the format of results ok?

If not I'm taking suggestions. Once established we are keeping the format. Note some of my formatting is based on space considerations. Thus rather than P.W. Sandral I have PW Sandral.

Are the names correct?

Do we, for example, use Mo or Maureen Connolly? Ann Gray or Annie Gray? Once a name is agreed on I'll put it in a name file and use that consistently across the board.

In addition help with any unresolved names is most welcome. Perhaps a separate file can be created for unresolved names.

Are the scores correct?


Most importantly, how do we resolve conflicting information?

My intention to to prefer primary sources (such as newspapers) and note differences with other sources when possible.

Last edited by Rollo : Oct 25th, 2011 at 02:21 PM.
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #5
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
And here all this time I thought this was the first year Margaret Smith won the title. Nobody played. Are you sure? To give some reference, I believe that same year Gloria Swanson made a silent film with Rudolph Valentino- the only time they appeared together. No, seriously, the Blast is like to place other for looking up stats and records. It's really incredible that way. So was the tournament held in December, or January?
Hey Jeffster

Swanson made some red hot films back in the day. Not so sure about the Valentino connection-I've only seen the Sheik-not my favorite silent film.

And yres, the first Australian championships in which women competed was held in December.
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #6
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Hey Jeffster

Swanson made some red hot films back in the day. Not so sure about the Valentino connection-I've only seen the Sheik-not my favorite silent film.

And yres, the first Australian championships in which women competed was held in December.
I've since actually read the lead-in to the initial post and December is right there staring at me. GUILTY! Regarding Valentino, he and Swanson were arguably the greatest movie stars back then, and Bill Tilden & Suzanne Lenglen (who I understand despised each other) were hob-knobbing with the hoy-paloy. YouTube actually has a clip of the Swanson/Valentino film. I don't know how much you like silents, but I really love them. It's worth a look!

P.S.- I don't think they were allowed to store the kind of volume in sherry Suzanne would have required for the arduous trip to Australia!
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Old Oct 25th, 2011, 09:15 PM   #7
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

(1) Commas in scores make it much easier for me to read them. I don't understand the rationale for excluding them. Don't underestimate the need for visual cues.

(2) Nicknames lead to confusion unless the actual names are also given. For example, how would someone new to the forum know for sure that "Mal Molesworth" is the same person as "Margaret Molesworth"?

(3) Even worse are married names. A lot of research on this board is done by using browser "find" functions. If I'm on a page of endless results and looking quickly for "Margaret Mutch," I'm not going to enter "Mal Molesworth" in the "find" box. Why make it unnecessarily difficult to do research?

(4) Don't omit the period after "d" (for defeated).

(5) Don't say "doubles" when we mean "women's doubles."

(6) I prefer that initials be followed by periods.

(7) It is hard to read doubles results when there is just a slash between names instead of also having spaces. For example, Irene Forbes-Smith/Sylvia Lance versus Irene Forbes-Smith / Sylvia Lance. I have to read the former two or three times to find the break in names.

(8) "Walkover" is preferred to "default." A match that never started is neither a defeat nor a win for either side. When quickly counting wins or losses, I often use the "find" function for "d." Classifying a walkover as a "d." skews the count.
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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #8
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
(2) Nicknames lead to confusion unless the actual names are also given. For example, how would someone new to the forum know for sure that "Mal Molesworth" is the same person as "Margaret Molesworth"?
'Mal Molesworth' (or sometimes 'Mall') was actually born 'Maud Margaret MUTCH' (Queensland Births, Deaths and Marriages data), so.......

Is it better (using a 1964 Aust Open result as an example) to say

R2 (5) Judy Tegart d Gail Sherriff 63 36 62

or

R2 (5) Judith Anne Marshall 'Judy' TEGART-DALTON (AUS) d Gail SHERRIFF-CHANFREAU-LOVERA-BENEDETTI (AUS - later FRA) 63 36 62

..and that's even without knowing if Gail has any middle names...

Does someone using these results for the first time know now to google 'Judy Tegart' or 'Judy Dalton' to get more info about the player or do they get confused with all these names which weren't even the names they went by at the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
(7) For example, Irene Forbes-Smith/Sylvia Lance versus Irene Forbes-Smith / Sylvia Lance. I have to read the former two or three times to find the break in names.
AND what about hyphenating single-married names when one of the names is already hyphenated..... eg:

Irene Cozens-Forbes-Smith / Sylvia Lance-Harper

Will someone now think Irene Cozens was married twice?

Just sayin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
(5) Don't say "doubles" when we mean "women's doubles."
Hmm - is this overkill on a board where we can only list women's results (and in many cases the official title was 'ladies doubles'). Do we need to say "women's singles" too????

Shame there's not a board where we can have men's AND women's results (at least for all the slams)...

Anyway - that's enough of playing devil's advocate for the moment. I'm just trying to say that some potential solutions may throw up other (sometimes unanticipated) problems.


Overall my preference with women's names is to use the name they were using when they played in an event. Any changes should be referenced in the first year of the change. eg - in a list of AO winners:

1966 Margaret Smith
1969 Margaret Court (nee Smith)
1970 Margaret Court

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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 03:04 AM   #9
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Thanks for denigrating my contributions. I don't go around denigrating yours. Opinions were requested. I gave one.

Regardless, I'll keep posting results the way I always have.
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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 03:23 AM   #10
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
Regardless, I'll keep posting results the way I always have.
That's the spirit..
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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 09:36 AM   #11
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
Thanks for denigrating my contributions. I don't go around denigrating yours. Opinions were requested. I gave one.

Regardless, I'll keep posting results the way I always have.
Keep it up, Blanche, and your dance card will be full by the end of the evening.
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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 10:12 AM   #12
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

It's ridiculous and confusing to include a player's married name(s) with results before she was married. A note can be added to the results once a player's married name is mentioned for the first time. This is what I did in the results threads I created. This is a basic and simple approach.

It's funny to think that these issues are still being debated nearly ten years after this site was created and that there is no agreement on them. Who's in charge?

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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #13
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Thanks for all your comments on formatting so far folks. I'll address a few of them here....

Quote:
It's ridiculous and confusing to include a player's married name(s) with results before she was married. A note can be added to the results once a player's married name is mentioned for the first time. This is what I did in the results threads I created. This is a basic and simple approach
Agreed. And this seems to the majority opinion.

Quote:
It's funny to think that these issues are still being debated nearly ten years after this site was created and that there is no agreement on them.
I prefer to run the site by consensus. If there was a clear majority opposed to something I advocated it would make me think twice or change. I encourage civil debate and believe it's healthy.

Quote:
Who's in charge?
I am. Would you prefer a more dictatorial approach Mark?

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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 01:49 PM   #14
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
Overall my preference with women's names is to use the name they were using when they played in an event. Any changes should be referenced in the first year of the change. eg - in a list of AO winners:

1966 Margaret Smith
1969 Margaret Court (nee Smith)
1970 Margaret Court
This is my preference as well. You'll notice that what I've done is create a section after the results called "Draw notes and resolves". I will use this section to explain how or why the results might differ from others and use it for name changes such as marriages.

With names I will list them alphabetically by last name. Clemenger first, and Webber last.

Last edited by Rollo : Oct 26th, 2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Old Oct 26th, 2011, 02:02 PM   #15
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Re: 1922 Australian Championships

Quote:
Commas in scores make it much easier for me to read them. I don't understand the rationale for excluding them. Don't underestimate the need for visual cues.
Commas do the opposite for me-they drive me crazy. The tiebreaker for me here is space. If a result runs too long and goes two lines it's the worst IMO.


Quote:
(2) Nicknames lead to confusion unless the actual names are also given. For example, how would someone new to the forum know for sure that "Mal Molesworth" is the same person as "Margaret Molesworth"?
Perhaps, but there is worse confusion when we can't agree on and adhere to a common first name. And I have to think of results spanning over 100 years. Using Christine Evert rather than the simple (and universally recognized) Chris would be more confusing.



Quote:
(3) Even worse are married names. A lot of research on this board is done by using browser "find" functions. If I'm on a page of endless results and looking quickly for "Margaret Mutch," I'm not going to enter "Mal Molesworth" in the "find" box. Why make it unnecessarily difficult to do research?
Again, space is a consideration. And while you prefer Billie Jean Moffitt King you are in the minority on this one AR.

This is where the married names thread you are maintaining will be of such value. Eventually we will turn it into an online Biographical Dictionary for women's tennis players.

Quote:
(4) Don't omit the period after "d" (for defeated).
Ok-I'll bend on this one. It's not a major space killer.


Quote:
(5) Don't say "doubles" when we mean "women's doubles."
In a women'e tennis board the gender is assumed

Quote:
(6) I prefer that initials be followed by periods.
With unlimited space I would agree, but space factors into this. I feeel comforatable going without the initials as this appraoch has been used in many old British tennis annuals.


Quote:
(7) It is hard to read doubles results when there is just a slash between names instead of also having spaces. For example, Irene Forbes-Smith/Sylvia Lance versus Irene Forbes-Smith / Sylvia Lance. I have to read the former two or three times to find the break in names.
Space again, and I just find it easier to read Irene Forbes-Smith/Sylvia Lance versus Irene Forbes-Smith / Sylvia Lance.

While I'm on the subject of doubles note that I go alphabetically by last name. Thus Casals/King and not King/Casals.


Quote:
(8) "Walkover" is preferred to "default."
The only difference I see is walkover is British and default American. Fortune has stuck the board with an American mod. In addition using default saves a space.

Quote:
A match that never started is neither a defeat nor a win for either side. When quickly counting wins or losses, I often use the "find" function for "d." Classifying a walkover as a "d." skews the count.
How else would I classify it without losing space?

Mallory advances over Lenglen by walkover

vs

Mallory d Lenglen default

Thanks for you replies Austinrunner. And yours too Gee Tee and Mark.

P.S. You too Jeff. I love the silents. Cabinet of Dr Caligari and anything with Harold Lloyd for example.

Last edited by Rollo : Oct 26th, 2011 at 02:20 PM.
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