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Old Aug 17th, 2011, 06:32 PM   #1
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the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

We're being very well catered for at the moment for the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2 has just been issued.

This gives the complete women's draws for all the Slams from inception (RG 1925).

Each page is split down the middle with half the draw on each side which I find very reader friendly.

These draws are in English - unfortunately perhaps for the majority but certainly for me any pages of dialogue is in Italian!

There is a table which would appear to be some statistical attempt to work out who the GOAT is, the top 10 being:

01 Steffi Graf 2760
02 Monica Seles 2751
03 Martina Navratilova 2728
04 Helen Wills 2721
05 Chris Evert 2699
06 Suzanne Lenglen 2680
07 Margaret Court 2670
08 Martina Hingis 2668
09 Maureen Connolly 2650
10 Billie Jean King 2643

The list goes down to #20 then weirdly gives the #s 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 34, 35, 37, 38, 41, 46 and 52 positions.

If anyone does get the book and can understand Italian maybe they could tell us what criteria they used and whether any reason is given for this baffling listing.
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Old Aug 17th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #2
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Interesting Chris!

Does it also provide doubles and mixed draws?
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Old Aug 18th, 2011, 02:16 PM   #3
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Interesting Chris!

Does it also provide doubles and mixed draws?
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! although It doesn't have the seedings for those events from what I have seen.
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Old Sep 7th, 2011, 12:48 PM   #4
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

I would like to thank you
This forum has been VERY helpful for me.

My Friend and co-autor Andrea Carta will write the explanation of this method ( ELO )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

The Grand Slam Record Book Vol 2 included ALL grand Slam tournaments
Aus, RG, Wimbledon, US (Woman) Single, double and mixed double.

if you have any questions, please write to me.

There is a "Grand Slam Record Book Vol.1" too.
with all the MAN draws ( single and double)

Ciao
Alessandro Albiero
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Old Sep 7th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #5
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleale View Post
My Friend and co-autor Andrea Carta will write the explanation of this method ( ELO )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Here I am.
Chris, Rollo, if you are still interested in the method, I shall provide full details.
In the book, I only listed top 20 + most known players (that's the "weird" reason). BTW, I'll provide full rankings as soon as the US Open will come to an end (let's hope before Tuesday!).

Andy
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Old Sep 7th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #6
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Great book Andy and Alessandro - just wish I could understand Italian!

I particularly like the lay-out.

I would be very interested for any SIMPLE explanation you could give regarding the method - I did try to read the Wiki article but it was way over my head!

On page 23 you mention Rino Tommasi's statistical method of ranking and 1961 is mentioned. Is it possible that this is saying that he began them then?

If so do you have access to any of his lists from 1961-1970?

Thanks and looking forward to full list at end of USO.
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Old Sep 8th, 2011, 07:20 PM   #7
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

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Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
On page 23 you mention Rino Tommasi's statistical method of ranking and 1961 is mentioned. Is it possible that this is saying that he began them then?
No, that's another matter - we only mentioned his method.

Quote:
I would be very interested for any SIMPLE explanation you could give regarding the method - I did try to read the Wiki article but it was way over my head!
I'll try. As you highlighted SIMPLE, I'll stay "simple" as most as possibile.

1) The Elo method was invented in the sixties, and applies to chess. Today it provides reliable rankings in chess, but we must remember these rankings are always related to the whole career, not the last year or couple of years. So the method is unreliable if you want "real-time" rankings. For the same reason - whole career - it's very good for GOAT analysis instead.

2) Nobody worries, in chess, about the "whole career" problem, because decline is slow. Sometimes, especially if a player comes back after long inactivity, it IS a problem.

3) As there are many similarities between chess and tennis, Mazak suggested to apply ELO method to tennis.

4) As there are some differences between chess and tennis, I modified some of the method's parameters according to these differences.

5) The method works this way: the matches are all the same, tournaments do not matter (that's one of the thing I modified). Only matches count. Players start the professional career at 2000 points' level. When two players meet, the winner gains points, the loser loses the same points. If difference between them is great, few points are gained (if the stronger player wins). If difference is great, many points are gained (if the weaker player wins).

6) Mathematical formulas rule the method. In chess, as the players start at 2000 points, these formulas imply that elite players are ranked between 2600-2700, sometimes up to 2800; null players are ranked at 1300-1400, with absolute starters at 1200. As I confirmed the 2000 points rule, the tennis's rankings are similar to the chess ones.

7) Now, the important thing.

8) This is NO GOAT. This is dominance level achieved, opponents considered. Certanly a strong indicator of who the GOAT may be, but not the only one. I myself believe this to be the most important indicator, but there are also longevity, number of victories in majors, H2H against main opponents, polyvalence, number of victories in minors, as we all know.

9) So that's the reason why Seles and Graf are almost equal. Seles has less victories, less longevity, little polyvalence, but dominance level is similar. It doesn't matter if dominance lasted 2-3 years or much more. If dominance lasted enough to become unquestionable, that's good for the ELO method (in chess there are a lot of significant examples).

10) Last but not least, forgive me if my english is far from perfect. At least I don't use Babelfish!

Andy

Last edited by Fantasio : Sep 8th, 2011 at 09:55 PM.
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Old Sep 8th, 2011, 09:44 PM   #8
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Ciao Andy.

What is 'polivalence'?
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Old Sep 8th, 2011, 09:56 PM   #9
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

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What is 'polivalence'?
Winning on all surfaces, basically. What is the correct term?

Andy
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Old Sep 9th, 2011, 12:38 AM   #10
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

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Winning on all surfaces, basically. What is the correct term?

Andy
I'm not sure there is one single word in English really..

'All-court ability (or record)' maybe? Although 'all-court' tends to mean a versatile player who can mix serve/volley and baseline play.

Any other suggestions guys??
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Old Sep 9th, 2011, 02:18 PM   #11
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

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Originally Posted by GeeTee View Post
I'm not sure there is one single word in English really..

'All-court ability (or record)' maybe? Although 'all-court' tends to mean a versatile player who can mix serve/volley and baseline play.

Any other suggestions guys??
I agree GeeTee that all-court tends to refer to the style of game a player has as opposed to his or her ability across all surfaces. Maybe "success on all surfaces" is a better term. The quality is the player's adaptability.
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Old Sep 9th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #12
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasio View Post
No, that's another matter - we only mentioned his method.


I'll try. As you highlighted SIMPLE, I'll stay "simple" as most as possibile.

1) The Elo method was invented in the sixties, and applies to chess. Today it provides reliable rankings in chess, but we must remember these rankings are always related to the whole career, not the last year or couple of years. So the method is unreliable if you want "real-time" rankings. For the same reason - whole career - it's very good for GOAT analysis instead.

2) Nobody worries, in chess, about the "whole career" problem, because decline is slow. Sometimes, especially if a player comes back after long inactivity, it IS a problem.

3) As there are many similarities between chess and tennis, Mazak suggested to apply ELO method to tennis.

4) As there are some differences between chess and tennis, I modified some of the method's parameters according to these differences.

5) The method works this way: the matches are all the same, tournaments do not matter (that's one of the thing I modified). Only matches count. Players start the professional career at 2000 points' level. When two players meet, the winner gains points, the loser loses the same points. If difference between them is great, few points are gained (if the stronger player wins). If difference is great, many points are gained (if the weaker player wins).

6) Mathematical formulas rule the method. In chess, as the players start at 2000 points, these formulas imply that elite players are ranked between 2600-2700, sometimes up to 2800; null players are ranked at 1300-1400, with absolute starters at 1200. As I confirmed the 2000 points rule, the tennis's rankings are similar to the chess ones.

7) Now, the important thing.

8) This is NO GOAT. This is dominance level achieved, opponents considered. Certanly a strong indicator of who the GOAT may be, but not the only one. I myself believe this to be the most important indicator, but there are also longevity, number of victories in majors, H2H against main opponents, polyvalence, number of victories in minors, as we all know.

9) So that's the reason why Seles and Graf are almost equal. Seles has less victories, less longevity, little polyvalence, but dominance level is similar. It doesn't matter if dominance lasted 2-3 years or much more. If dominance lasted enough to become unquestionable, that's good for the ELO method (in chess there are a lot of significant examples).

10) Last but not least, forgive me if my english is far from perfect. At least I don't use Babelfish!

Andy

Very interesting method. Welcome to the board, ciao! Where can I get this book?
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Old Sep 12th, 2011, 01:47 PM   #13
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Thumbs down Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Very interesting method. Welcome to the board, ciao! Where can I get this book?
Alessandro - I hope - will know that!

After US 2011, that's the new all-time ELO ranking, top 50 (but no change occurred at this level):

1) Graf 2760
2) Seles 2751
3) Navratilova 2728
4) Wills-Moody 2721
5) Evert 2699
6) Lenglen 2680
7) Smith-Court 2670
8) Hingis 2668
9) Connolly 2650
10) Moffitt-King 2643
11) S. Williams 2637
12) V. Williams 2612
13) Henin 2610
14) Goolagong-Cawley 2601
15) Cljisters 2577
16) Bueno 2566
17) Marble 2560
18) Sanchez-Vicario 2555
19) Davenport 2549
20) Austin 2548
21) Jacobs 2540
22) Mandlikova 2529
23) Sabatini 2525
24) Bjurstedt-Mallory 2525
25) Gibson 2520
26) Novotna 2517
27) Hart 2514
28) Sharapova 2513
29) Osborne-DuPont 2510
30) Richey-Gunter 2509
31) Krahwinkel-Sperling 2507
32) Brough 2504
33) Round 2499
34) Douglass-Lambert-Chambers 2498
35) Pierce 2493
36) Haydon-Jones 2489
37) Mauresmo 2489
38) Capriati 2481
39) Fry 2477
40) Martinez 2469
41) Betz 2468
42) McKane-Godfree 2461
43) Hard 2461
44) Passemard-Mathieu 2459
45) Sukova 2456
46) Ivanovic 2453
47) Turner-Bowrey 2448
48) Jaeger 2441
49) Shriver 2437
50) Li 2436

20- points' difference is not that important, BTW.
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Old Sep 12th, 2011, 02:20 PM   #14
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasio View Post
Alessandro - I hope - will know that!
The grand slam record book Vol.2
by amazon.it
http://www.amazon.it/grand-slam-reco...dp/8860020239/


The grand slam record book Vol.1
http://www.amazon.it/grand-slam-reco...dp/8860020174/


In UK
http://www.tennisbookshop.com/news.php


or write to Our editor:

effepilibri@email.it

Mr. Pietro Farro

Last edited by aleale : Sep 13th, 2011 at 08:30 AM. Reason: I have correct the editor's e-mail address
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Old Sep 12th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #15
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Re: the Grand Slam Record Book vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleale View Post
The grand slam record book Vol.2
by amazon.it
http://www.amazon.it/grand-slam-reco...dp/8860020239/


The grand slam record book Vol.1
http://www.amazon.it/grand-slam-reco...dp/8860020174/


In UK
http://www.tennisbookshop.com/news.php


or write to Our editor:

effepilibri@hotmail.it

Mr. Pietro Farro
Thanks. Tennis Bookshop mails worldwide so might get it from there.
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