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Old Sep 29th, 2011, 08:19 PM   #151
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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Originally Posted by joy division View Post
I think at Dispekers marvelous late night show on the picture thread you just favored most, where she smiles all over the face. What makes her beautiful there, definitely comes from " under the surface".
We have to clear the expression "beauty", to avoid misunderstandings. Hard to do in some words.
Human beauty is basically connected with motion, and emotion.
Imo, Forms and symetrics are aesthetic, physical attributes, but are only a part of the substance in the "beauty question".
Why should it come from the inside? It is just a smile that produces an attractive shape. Of course, it comes from under the surface, i.e. from the neurons that activate the muscles

Yes, beauty is connected to motion, that's why everybody looks different in different contexts, but there are scientific experiments that try to get to the fundamentals of attractiveness. And those are the things I mentioned.

The first things that you notice are the physical attributes. After that, you tend to make inferences about personality traits based on face expression and the perceived attractiveness changes once you get to know the person. So maybe the best word is attractiveness, not beauty. What I wanted to know is if she's attractive, on a first sight, to people who don't know anything about her and it seems she is. Did I manage to make things clearer now?

Say, is it a good idea to make an "how attractive is Julia" thread?
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Old Sep 29th, 2011, 09:22 PM   #152
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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Say, is it a good idea to make an "how attractive is Julia" thread?
On GM, that could attract haters. But on here, i'd guess hse's end up with a 12 out of 10
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Old Sep 29th, 2011, 09:28 PM   #153
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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On GM, that could attract haters. But on here, i'd guess hse's end up with a 12 out of 10
I wasn't thinking about just rating her Maybe a poll with the question whether she's the most attractive player But for further discussions. Should I?
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Old Sep 29th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #154
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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I wasn't thinking about just rating her Maybe a poll with the question whether she's the most attractive player But for further discussions. Should I?
it's up to you but if you do, you can count on me being one of the first to rave about her
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Old Sep 30th, 2011, 10:46 AM   #155
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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it's up to you but if you do, you can count on me being one of the first to rave about her
Neah, after a good night's sleep, it doesn't seem like a good idea anymore Plus, we can get an idea from your GM thread
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Old Oct 1st, 2011, 09:23 AM   #156
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

Hey guys!
I'm new in this forum! Just wanna introduce myself! I follow your posts since a couple of month to stay updated about Julia! Now I wanna join in myself. I'm a huge fan of Julia (Gools), Petko, Sabine and Ana Ivanovic.
Great to see that especially Julia has so many fans here! I met her once and she is such a nice girl!
I just bought the german magazine SPORTSFREUND. They have a huge interview with Julia! Really nice one! It's just in german, but I try to translate it and post it here!
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Old Oct 1st, 2011, 09:28 AM   #157
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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Originally Posted by tennisfish33 View Post
Hey guys!
I'm new in this forum! Just wanna introduce myself! I follow your posts since a couple of month to stay updated about Julia! Now I wanna join in myself. I'm a huge fan of Julia (Gools), Petko, Sabine and Ana Ivanovic.
Great to see that especially Julia has so many fans here! I met her once and she is such a nice girl!
I just bought the german magazine SPORTSFREUND. They have a huge interview with Julia! Really nice one! It's just in german, but I try to translate it and post it here!
A very good way to introduce yourself !!!
Great, to have you with us !
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Old Oct 1st, 2011, 09:35 AM   #158
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

^^ What JD said
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Old Oct 1st, 2011, 03:17 PM   #159
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

Tennisfish, you said you met Julia once.
On what occasion was that? You are free to tell us a little bit.
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Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 03:51 PM   #160
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

tennisfish we are waiting!
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Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 09:35 PM   #161
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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Originally Posted by Skoo View Post
Well, it seems that beauty is about symmetry and averageness, but also about the differences between sexes (sexual dimorphism; if you want to read more, click here). Those things I mentioned are just some noise to her beauty and she is attractive probably because she has a good symmetry and because she is very feminine. And some other things, like sparkling blue eyes and especially her skin (I say that because a lot of people I asked mentioned that and I also heard some commentators; also, something that caught me eye from the start; she doesn't naturally have a darker complexion, but tan catches better on her). Anyway, definitely not the collection of blemishes :lol
It's weird that you speak about symmetry... this is a very greek-like concept... in the greek conception of architecture... they had that pathology for symmetry - one side had to be as perfect as the other because according to their thoughts, it was pleasing to eye, it was beautiful so they would search for this quest of absolute symmetry to content themselves...



This above is typical of a greek architecture from the doric order VIth. before J.C. (Don't ask me the name of the monument I just googled it quickly to show ) - another Greek architectural example in the modern doric order is the Lincoln memorial in Washington...

---

So Julia is symmetric as these ? Just teasing...

I mean what makes Julia beautiful is very difficult to define, symmetry but can a face be symmetrically perfect ? If yes then how do you exclude these infinite little details that we do not see with the eye from the concept of symmetry ? How is it defined that symmetry is a crowd pleaser ?

I think to state beauty is about symmetry is really far catched because in the fashion industry for example dissymmetrical faces are often what you'll see and will be having greater success in the high fashion than and all the Julia-like faces soft, tender, poetic, well defined would be relegated to the second league of commercial modeling... because they are crowd pleaser.

It's weird but if nonetheless I asked what is a crowd pleasing woman and how it is defined that she is crowd pleasing everyone would be answering the same thing (a girl who doesn't have disproportions, tall, slim etc...) but if I asked them where does this come from, I'm sure they would go blank.

IDK maybe I'm weird but I also can find beauty into a dissymmetrical face too whereas many many wouldn't or at least very few...

Over the past years in history, many great minds confronted themselves to defining beauty Leibniz, Crousaz, St. Augustin, Wolff etc... and even Diderot but few brought reasonable answers [...] Leibniz for example would say that beauty is perfection but would be unable to define the word perfection...

Wolff would define things we liked a beautiful and things we disliked as ugly - saying that things that are beautiful have such a perfection that it generates certain type of pleasure that would have us like it but he only seems to be defining the cognitive side of beauty or the perceptive side not the intrinsic reason of why we find things beautiful...

So finally, what is beauty ? St. Augustin stated that beauty is a concept in which you need to find variety, order, proportions and regularity nice but if an object doesn't dispose of variety what is it ugly ? In much as things can not be one and perfect thus have all these characteristics then is everything ugly on earth ?

---

Just like how you sectarized beauty with St. Augustin saying that it is about symmetry and averageness so what about girls who do not have these characteristics ? How are they placed on the ladder of beauty ?

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Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 11:20 PM   #162
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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Originally Posted by Vikapower View Post
I mean what makes Julia beautiful is very difficult to define, symmetry but can a face be symmetrically perfect ? If yes then how do you exclude these infinite little details that we do not see with the eye from the concept of symmetry ? How is it defined that symmetry is a crowd pleaser ?

I think to state beauty is about symmetry is really far catched because in the fashion industry for example dissymmetrical faces are often what you'll see and will be having greater success in the high fashion than and all the Julia-like faces soft, tender, poetic, well defined would be relegated to the second league of commercial modeling... because they are crowd pleaser.
Johnny, it is not me that speaks about symmetry, but science, that is, tested hypotheses over the last about three decades.

No, a face cannot be symmetrically perfect (we can make computer simulations though), but the more symmetric, the more attractive. Maybe there are some models with pronounced facial asymmetry, but it doesn't matter, because in the industry they focus more on the rest of the body. However, if you look at Victoria's Secret's models, their faces have a really good symmetry. So do attractive actresses, like Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron, etc. Below you have a good comparison.



And another one:



If you were to measure the horizontal lenght of their faces and calculate the middle horizontal point, you would see that, for Steffi and Sveta, there would be "more of the face" on one side compared to the other, the right side, as viewed from here, being larger. Julia probably has the most symmetric face, with some advantage over Ana. Then you can look at the symmetry of the mouth, nose and eyes placement, the width/height ratio and the distance between the eyes. There is no wonder Julia is so attractive

But symmetry is only part of the story. There's also averageness involved (and you need computer simulation for that and it can be counterintuitive at first). You can't say much about that just by looking faces. Your brain is programmed to rapidly compute that (and symmetry) and give the verdict. Probably Julia's and Ana's are more closer to average.

Then you have sexual dimorphism. Overall, Julia and Ana look more feminine than Steffi and Sveta, with smaller chins and lower face areas. Steffi and Sveta also have feminine traits, like pretty full lips (Franny would an example of good symmetry, but masculine traits which make her not really attractive).

There are also other things, but a very important trait is the dark complexion Julia and Ana have compared to the other two, especially Steffi. It is really something that hits you in the eye -- smooth, tanned skin.

As JD pointed out, attractiveness is also related to motion and emotion. Julia and Ana look pretty good also in different perspective and with different emotions. I think Julia is most beautiful when tired and serious, since she looked so amazing in Madrid. Also, Ana looks better with makeup, while Julia doesn't. And we can go and on

There is no wonder the Greeks were obssesed with perfect shapes. It's what turned them on


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IDK maybe I'm weird but I also can find beauty into a dissymmetrical face too whereas many many wouldn't or at least very few...
Not weird. Despite the fact that she is not very pretty, Steffi is liked by many more people than Julia. Agassi, quite a pretty guy, even married her. Behavior can often be the sexiest thing about a person or his/her "soul" (i.e., personality traits). Attitude also matters a lot, a sexy attitude, for example, being... sexier Other people might be attracted by "nerdiness", dominance, shyness etc.

I asked those people (friends) to rate Julia to see if she's attractive on the first sight, without the effect of behavior. And she is. Actually, I, for one, first saw her, thought what a babe, and only after that watched her play and got mesmerized by her tennis too. So I should have known she is objectively attractive.

As for the philosophers, again, forget them They may have hit the nail in the head here and there, but now we have science, we don't need opinions. We are primates and, like every other living creature, everything that we are and do serves the purposes of survival and reproduction. We like symmetry, averageness, smooth skin etc. because they signal "good genes" in a potential mate. The opposite traits are associated with poor health and other bad stuff. So we would like our offspring to inherit the better genes. I want Julia, not Steffi Agassi wanted Steffi basically because she was GOAT. That also signals very good genes, but not through mere physical aspect, but through athleticism, endurance and good cognitive skills (i.e., quality brain).

Of course, if I didn't make myself clear, you can always read that article. I think it's easy to understand if you're not accustomed to the terminology.

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Old Oct 3rd, 2011, 02:40 AM   #163
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

First I would like to share a program with you called anaface here, it could interest you.

On the symmetrical part though I was just teasing a bit but I think there's a differentiation to make... in high fashion though, the castors watch both the face and body as one there's not a total difference made between the 2... because models who do high fashion are sometimes also brought to make editorials, advertisements, magazine covers... that's why the face is very important...

In modeling you have the commercial section (Victoria's secret etc...), the high fashion or pręt-ā-porter and the couture, haute couture - each section requires some specific attributes that you might not find in another - a commercial model would never be able to do couture and certainly vice-versa...

Here's a crop of girls from the high fashion in opposition to the Victoria's secret models... there's a flagrant difference between both group of girls I posted let's see if you find it...




Victoria's secret...



Quote:
Then you can look at the symmetry of the mouth, nose and eyes placement, the width/height ratio and the distance between the eyes. There is no wonder Julia is so attractive.
Ok, so coming from this, how would you judge the features of Magdalena Frackowiak 5th picture starting from the first in the high fashion models ?

Quote:
We like symmetry, averageness, smooth skin etc. because they signal "good genes" in a potential mate. The opposite traits are associated with poor health and other bad stuff. So we would like our offspring to inherit the better genes.
Well you see this is why I asked these questions, see below... we gotta admit though that the society have really automated certain things into a good crop of people nowadays...

I mean this is the thing, beauty is sectarized by subjectivity and projected on other people as "we" and every thing that does not fall into that pre-fabricated thing is rejected... yet, there are guys who do not fall into that mold and fall in love with girls who are far from being "signals of good genes"... take a guy who profoundly falls in love with a handicapped girl...

What did he understand that we didn't yet he's guy like us ? Was he able to understand better than any other that a woman whatever the envelop she carries is still (or still can be a carrier of good genes) ? Is he more clairvoyant than another fellow dude ?

It's funny that you say we are primates (which is fact) yet one of our intrinsic and inherent characteristic is to be able to think and the way you said that was like we are like the Bonobo's or Pan Paniscus who can not control our envies and need to sex for whatever need we want ---> this is what the Bonobo's do when they want something in their society.

Quote:
It's weird but if nonetheless I asked what is a crowd pleasing woman and how it is defined that she is crowd pleasing everyone would be answering the same thing (a girl who doesn't have disproportions, tall, slim etc...) [...]
Quote:
[...] beauty is a concept in which you need to find variety, order, proportions and regularity nice but if an object doesn't dispose of variety what is it ugly ? In much as things can not be one and perfect thus have all these characteristics then is everything ugly on earth ?

Last edited by Vikapower : Oct 3rd, 2011 at 02:47 AM.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2011, 09:23 AM   #164
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

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Originally Posted by Vikapower View Post
First I would like to share a program with you called anaface here, it could interest you.
Nice one, thanks! I put Julia's face in there and I got pretty good results and, as I thought, almost perfect horizontal symmetry. Nose a little too big, yes, but the funniest part was that her nose it too big relative to her years That's, of course, because I set the ear points too close. They were under her hair


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On the symmetrical part though I was just teasing a bit but I think there's a differentiation to make... in high fashion though, the castors watch both the face and body as one there's not a total difference made between the 2... because models who do high fashion are sometimes also brought to make editorials, advertisements, magazine covers... that's why the face is very important...

In modeling you have the commercial section (Victoria's secret etc...), the high fashion or pręt-ā-porter and the couture, haute couture - each section requires some specific attributes that you might not find in another - a commercial model would never be able to do couture and certainly vice-versa...
I see. I didn't know that, I only heard here and there that it's not necessarily about the face.

As for those pictures, none of them seems to have bad symmetry. There are some things that make some of them prettier than others. Magdalena Frackowiak seems to have the most pronounced assymetry from that picture, but I looked at other pictures and she is also has good symmetry What was your point?

I think I answered to your other questions. In the end, yes, what you find attractive will be subjective. But by isolating them in experiments, researchers found these objective traits that people find attractive regardless of gender, culture, experience and other subjective factors.

And the guy that falls for the handicapped girl finds her attractive for her behavior, attitude, personality traits or maybe other things we don't know. Don't you think Agassi could have another (actuall many other) more good looking woman? Stephen Hawking had also had two wives and three children! Picasso, a short and unattractive man, had two wives, four children and a lot of mistresses. The list can go on. Smart is sexy


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It's funny that you say we are primates (which is fact) yet one of our intrinsic and inherent characteristic is to be able to think and the way you said that was like we are like the Bonobo's or Pan Paniscus who can not control our envies and need to sex for whatever need we want ---> this is what the Bonobo's do when they want something in their society.
If we are prmates, it doesn't mean that we can't have better self-control. Anyway, it must have not been so developed in our ancestors, because the whole idea with self-control is to delay a reward because attaining to it right now would be actually less rewarding than later or it would have very bad side effects. If you meet Julia, you would want to at least try to kiss her. However, she won't approve and you might even get punished by security. It definitely won't get you into her tennis skirt But, if you manage to talk to her, get to know eachother, and show her what a great man you are (courtship), that might do the trick. If our cousin primates can increase their reproductive succes by rape or other forceful means, of course they won't want to have anything to do with self-control Nevertheless, in controlled setting, they can show better self-control too.

The differences are there, of course, and they are based both on genes (bigger frontal lobe, for example) and environment (education, culture). The points is that, whatever an organism does, the purpose (by no means a conscious one) is to live and carry its genes to the next generation.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2011, 09:39 AM   #165
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Re: Görges Fans Chat Thread: Volume 1

Stop it Vikapower and Skoo, your scientific discourse turns me on somehow.
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