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Old May 7th, 2011, 11:01 PM   #16
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

Quote:
Originally Posted by gouci View Post
Teams with no Americans = 1


2007-08 Season = 1

Long Beach State - 8 from - Great Britain, Austrailia, France, Germany



.

I hope it happens again SOON... 8 league titles in 10 years. :wors hip:

Your team.... just one TAINTED trophy.

SCOREBOARD

Honestly, every school should be seeking the 8 best players they can attract. But if you want to pay bad players... it is much appreciated.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 11:15 PM   #17
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

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Originally Posted by form View Post
Your team.... just one TAINTED trophy.
Form you shame classy Jenny with this post.

The Long Beach St. head coach has never once publicly accused UCI of cheating.

follow her example
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Old May 7th, 2011, 11:25 PM   #18
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

Here's a BBC article I'm reposting.

US college tennis: Simmering row over foreign players

By Franz Strasser BBC World News America, Charlottesville, Virginia

Baylor tennis team's international talent

No other American college sport has more international players than tennis. But with tens of millions of dollars in scholarships going to foreign-born players each year, critics argue that the use of non-American athletes has got to be reined in for the good of home-grown students.

Head coach Joey Scrivano is preparing for one of the biggest tournaments of the season. He calls his players simply "kiddo" and his team the "Bears". But a look at the scoreboard tells a bigger story about the Baylor University women's tennis team.

Names like Secerbegovic, Nakic, Stanivuk, Novakova and Filipiak fill the roster for the team from Waco, Texas. Baylor was listed as the top team in the US last spring, but did not have a single American player on the team.

When Baylor hired him in 2003, Scrivano's mission was to develop the best tennis programme in the country. "I believe I should be able to win and so I will find the best players who are going to be competitive," he says.

Scrivano is not alone. Six of the 16 teams competing at the ITA Indoor Championship in Virginia have more international players than Americans. The top 25 teams in men's and women's tennis list 175 players from abroad - some 37% of all players.

'Mercenary athletes'

Veteran coaches and tennis officials agree that the best American players have long been opting to play for a small handful of traditional tennis powerhouses, leaving little US talent for schools like Baylor to recruit.

"It's a dilemma for the coach who is under pressure to win and has a limited number of outstanding American players available," says David Benjamin, the President of the Intercollegiate Tennis Association (ITA).

With more money and prestige in college sports, the pressure is on the coaches and the athletic directors, says Benjamin. "It's a lot tougher now. You might not get fired, but you might not get a bonus, either."

For decades, Stanford University has had no problem attracting top American tennis talent, and has won the national title in women's tennis six times in the last 10 years. Stanford won the ITA Indoor Championship this February with no international players on its 11-woman roster.

Not being able to recruit the top athletes stateside should not be an excuse for tennis coaches, says Lele Forood, Stanford head coach. "It's gone well beyond what it should be. You are basically renting players and have mercenary athletes that help you win championships."

Some of the international players flowing into the American system come through Anton Rudjuk, who was one of the first Russian-born players in the US and now runs a recruiting service for players and coaches.

Since 2004, he has helped over 600 athletes find playing time and scholarships at US colleges.

"It was intimidating for the coaches at first and they didn't want to spend the dollars," says Rudjuk, who has brought between 25-30 coaches to Russia. "We broke the door down, offered recruiting trips, and rented the courts so that they can check out the players in person."

The higher you go in the team rankings, the more international players you will find, says Rudjuk. "Obviously the pressure is on."

Scholarships

Rudjuk's players pay him between $1,500-2,000 (£925-1,133) up front for the consultation, the connection to a coach, and help with the paperwork. He does not guarantee a spot but the reward, a four-year scholarship to some of the top schools in the US, can be worth 40 times the investment.

In the top 25 women teams about 40 percent of the scholarships in Division 1 go to international players. The top 25 schools in Division 2 award about 70 percent of their 6 scholarships per team to female players from abroad.

Many in college tennis say that international players are often older than their American high school counterparts. Some of them have been unsuccessful as professional players, and use college tennis as a second chance - and an opportunity for free education.

"It's a fairness issue," says Geoff Macdonald, who coaches one international player on his women's team at Vanderbilt University. "I don't think the intent of Title IX was for a European pro to come here and take a scholarship from an American kid who might not be as good."

Title IX was signed into law in 1972 and requires equal funding for boys and girls in every educational program under federal funding. It has resulted in a significant increase in scholarships available for female sports, such as college tennis.

But with more than 5,700 scholarships available for both men's and women's tennis, David Benjamin, the ITA president, argues some schools would leave money on the table if they did not allocate it to international players.

"It's hard to find an American girl who doesn't get a scholarship," says Benjamin. "There is less opportunity in the top teams for American players, but they can still get a scholarship somewhere else."
Pro effect

There are only four Americans in the top 20 in men's and women's professional tennis, and the Williams sisters are two of them.

Former coaches like Tim Cass, now associate athletic director at the University of New Mexico, say more scholarships for international players means fewer Americans will make their way up to the professional level.

"Those kids stop playing at the age of 18 as opposed to 22 and tennis is not a part of their life anymore."

Among proponents and critics alike, there is widespread agreement that international players raise the level of college tennis, and the US Tennis Association (USTA) argues it helps in the development of future US professional players.

"A player like John Isner needed those four years in his development and the added push that the high competition level provided," says Erica Perkins, Manager for Junior and Collegiate Competition at the USTA.

But for parents like Wayne Bryan, whose sons Bob and Mike played at Stanford and are currently the best men's double team in the world, the sport was not meant to purely develop professional players but to provide important life lessons for student athletes.

"I don't think college tennis should be a world-class sport. And you shouldn't have to compete with the world to play at Baylor or any other place."
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Old May 7th, 2011, 11:34 PM   #19
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Re: 100% foreigners club

Here's a quote from Syracuse coach Luke Jensen.

"At a time when roughly a third of Division I tennnis players are foreign-born, Jensen unapologetically limits his roster to Americans. He won't condemn recruiting practices of specific colleagues, but he reasonably wonders how juniors can thrive in the US when so many players are deprived of a chance of competing in college. "Let's be honest, college tennis is failing American tennis."
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Old May 8th, 2011, 12:58 AM   #20
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Re: 100% foreigners club

Quote:
Originally Posted by gouci View Post
Here's a quote from Syracuse coach Luke Jensen.

"At a time when roughly a third of Division I tennnis players are foreign-born, Jensen unapologetically limits his roster to Americans. He won't condemn recruiting practices of specific colleagues, but he reasonably wonders how juniors can thrive in the US when so many players are deprived of a chance of competing in college. "Let's be honest, college tennis is failing American tennis."
Did you just quote Luke Jensen and seek credibility? He's really helped Syracuse with this all American 4 star brigade. Oh, and don't forget how he establishes his line up based on wind sprints! I am not kidding.. that was his defence when he got nailed and lost a match for completely jumbling his line up (v E Michigan or Marshall?).

Ugly American = I don't want to play ball against you because I can't beat you and my mommy said I can do anything I want.

What do you do for a living gouci? It can't be competitive or sales oriented? If you went to UCI, how in the world did you survive using the curve?

Try this one... FROM A SENIOR DEVELOPMENT OFFICER OF THE UNITED STATES TENNIS ASSOCIATION (An American who played college tennis). There OFFICIAL position.

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/article.asp?id=1121

CL: What's your take on the number of international players on U.S. college teams?

EP: If you actually sit down and look at the numbers in each division and at each level, it's probably not as big a problem as some people perceive it to be.

On a personal level, I played on a team where I was the only or one of two Americans for all of my years there, and I had an incredible experience, and it's probably the reason I got so much better. I have friends from all over the world and I grew up quicker than maybe I would have on another team.

On a professional level, and this is what I tell parents and players when I go out and speak, it's college coaches' jobs to make their teams better. I don't know many coaches in the country who don't go out and recruit American players first. There's very few. If they're graduating their No. 4 player, it's their job, if they're doing their job well, to bring in a player that's better than the one graduating. So if they strike out on the Americans that they're interested in, they've got to continue to do their job. So I have no problem with college coaches who are doing the work and out recruiting American players.

I think it's our job as Player Development, and I think Patrick, Jay (Berger) and Ola (Malmqvist) would agree with me, to get more top American players, to increase that pool for those college coaches.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 01:29 AM   #21
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

Quote:
Originally Posted by form View Post
I hope it happens again SOON... 8 league titles in 10 years. :wors hip:

Your team.... just one TAINTED trophy.

SCOREBOARD

Honestly, every school should be seeking the 8 best players they can attract. But if you want to pay bad players... it is much appreciated.
I know I'm repeating my self, but since this is a State of California school as a California Taxpaper, I think it is wrong that there is no effort to "hire" Americans.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 05:00 AM   #22
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

gouci, it's Australia not Austrailia
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Old May 8th, 2011, 06:36 AM   #23
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Re: 100% foreigners club

Quote:
Originally Posted by gouci View Post
Here's a quote from Syracuse coach Luke Jensen.
This is the same Luke Jensen that had a match overturned last season because he played his #1 player at 4, isn't that right?

Not sure if that's a guy whose soapbox quotes I want to be admiring.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 06:22 PM   #24
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

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I know I'm repeating my self, but since this is a State of California school as a California Taxpaper, I think it is wrong that there is no effort to "hire" Americans.
Ok, fact check: Currently 2 americans on the team gouci is so jealous of. There is an attempt. They are # 4 and # 8 in the line up and were Top 60 players on tennis recruiting.net.

Ok, fact: US only has about 35-50 high quality players per year then the international kids are slotted in ahead (can beat regularly) of the rest of the US kids. They are just better. Athletic scholarships are NOT WELFARE and like real life you EARN them.

So if you ran a business, who would you hire after those first 35-50 American's took other employment (as noted elsewhere: Stanford, Florida, Duke, UCLA, UNC...)?

Lastly your tax payer comment is just UGLY AMERICANISM. Yep, that's the attitude that is destroying our country. My great grandparents were foreign and made great contributions to a country BUILDING.... not taking their ball and going home. Of course, Fox News is still convinced that the looooooooooong form of the President's birth certificate is not real and that their only concern is to protect America as oppossed to just prejudice.

But trust me, every coach in country would gladly have QUALITY Americans...
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Old May 9th, 2011, 06:42 PM   #25
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

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Originally Posted by form View Post
Ok, fact check: Currently 2 americans on the team gouci is so jealous of. There is an attempt. They are # 4 and # 8 in the line up and were Top 60 players on tennis recruiting.net.

...
No, Form, You cheer for the local team, Long Beach State, I also cheer for my local teams, including having an affinity for American players over players and teams from far away. You are too quick to call this idea as ugly Americanism. Would it be fair that someone call you ugly LBSian for cheering the local multiple time conference champion?

There is nothing wrong with wanting my taxes to go first towards Californians, .

Last edited by 2nd_serve : May 9th, 2011 at 06:49 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 06:46 PM   #26
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

Part II

The system where 18 year old California girls have to compete for scholarships with 21 year old Czech girls, was not an even playing field. The system that favored financial rewarding foreign players over Americans, de-incentized the development of tennis juniors in America, and provided a subsidy to the player development budget of foreign country players.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 07:25 PM   #27
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

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Originally Posted by 2nd_serve View Post
Part II

The system where 18 year old California girls have to compete for scholarships with 21 year old Czech girls, was not an even playing field. The system that favored financial rewarding foreign players over Americans, de-incentized the development of tennis juniors in America, and provided a subsidy to the player development budget of foreign country players.
1. The system doesn't favor foreign players, the system favors BETTER players. Right now many of those happen to be international and that makes sense. If you consider the number of competitive junior players in America (not just any kid with a racket and a helicopter mom, but kids that put earnest time and effort into training to play at the next level), it is a fraction of the number kids who play at that level worldwide.

2. If a Czech girl comes over at age 21, we are no longer "developing" her. So no, we are not subsidizing the development of Czech tennis. How many women play college tennis and go on to successful WTA tours? None. College tennis is a destination, not a development program. You might say that we are developing the future leaders of other countries by giving them free educations, but we certainly aren't helping their tennis development. My counter would be that most of the kids that come here to play are here to stay. So what we're actually doing is bringing the brightest minds over to make this country a better place.

BTW, go check your local graduate school for any of the "hard" disciplines. You're going to find a LOT of internationals. Are you going to tell the UCI graduate math department to quit recruiting internationals too?

3. By reducing the number of internationals and diluting the talent level in college tennis, we're only going to make it an even LESS viable path to the ATP/WTA.

4. College tennis has no debt or duty to American junior tennis. Why should the NCAA (or any individual school) bear the burden of being the dangling carrot for junior tennis players? I'm going to flip it around on you - when the USTA starts subsidizing some of college tennis' costs, then maybe you've got an argument.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 08:07 PM   #28
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

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Originally Posted by 10sE View Post
1. The system doesn't favor foreign players, the system favors BETTER players. Right now many of those happen to be international and that makes sense. If you consider the number of competitive junior players in America (not just any kid with a racket and a helicopter mom, but kids that put earnest time and effort into training to play at the next level), it is a fraction of the number kids who play at that level worldwide.
False dichotomy. Its not either / or, its both. Of course, the system has favored better player, but it has also tilted to favor foreign players.

More International players. True. You've to me there. But when the subsidy of foreign players is removed, more American players will be developed.0

Quote:
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2. If a Czech girl comes over at age 21, we are no longer "developing" her. So no, we are not subsidizing the development of Czech tennis. How many women play college tennis and go on to successful WTA tours?
Yes, but, all along, with the old system the Czech player, faced a different return on investment in developing her tennis game. She could try to go pro, and if she did not achieve a successful WTA tour, (most likely, she could still be financial rewarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10sE View Post

BTW, go check your local graduate school for any of the "hard" disciplines. You're going to find a LOT of internationals. Are you going to tell the UCI graduate math department to quit recruiting internationals too?
Well, I don't think that the UCI math department does recruit many Czech mathematics or engineers, and provide them scholarships.

Quote:
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3. By reducing the number of internationals and diluting the talent level in college tennis, we're only going to make it an even LESS viable path to the ATP/WTA.
That is one possible short term effect. But that negative is more than outweighed by the greater number of American juniors that will enter the sport, as they react to the incentive of more scholarships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10sE View Post

4. College tennis has no debt or duty to American junior tennis. Why should the NCAA (or any individual school) bear the burden of being the dangling carrot for junior tennis players? I'm going to flip it around on you - when the USTA starts subsidizing some of college tennis' costs, then maybe you've got an argument.
Yes, those are strong points. And I'm not sure how to counter them. But when USTA was distancing itself from college tennis, I criticized it for that. I believe Patrick McEnroe is correcting that error.

But for the NCAA, as set quota of for example half internationals, could be burden to getting the best talent. But a six month rule, places everybody on the same footing, enhances amateurism and education. Opps, I've go to go, no time to write more, right now.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #29
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

I'm glad to have a good discussion in which we both make our points without name-calling or being defensive. I do agree about the internationals having been better prepared, but as you say now the 6-month rule will level the playing field some. I don't think the numbers will change much (intl vs. US), I just think we'll see less seasoned pros which is probably a good thing.

Even though some people put the spotlight on them, the 20 and 21 year-old pros are the exception. The typical international women's college player is 18-19, just like the Americans are. The reason they get the scholarship isn't usually because of their experience, it is because they are better players. I believe part of that is better coaching internationally and part of that is better work ethic. That's 100% opinion, but I do have some experience to back it up.

I don't think we'll see more American players being developed because I don't think women's college tennis is a place where players are developed. I think it' a place where for the most part players are rewarded for their past accomplishments and set out to pasture. All that we're going to see is a few more Americans getting scholarships - MAYBE. I think we're just going to see coaches work harder to get young internationals and I think the foreign kids are going to catch on and start coming to college earlier rather than grind it out in the $10 and $25ks for a couple of years before inevitably realizing that they are not the next Kim Clijsters.

What you're never going to be able to stop is universities wanting the best and the brightest. There may not be a lot of Czechs in the UCI math department but as in any good math department there are plenty of Asians...

http://www.math.uci.edu/graduate/dir...aduate+student

Check any competitive grad school for engineering, phsyics, math, and any of the sciences and you'll see that the ratio looks a lot like the average competitive D1 tennis roster.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 08:58 PM   #30
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Re: Teams with 100% foreign players

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Yes, but, all along, with the old system the Czech player, faced a different return on investment in developing her tennis game. She could try to go pro, and if she did not achieve a successful WTA tour, (most likely, she could still be financial rewarded.
I would do a "FIFY" and replace the word "Czech" with ANY, but for the sake of not being an internet twit I will instead say that what I have always found funny was the false assumption that a European girl had more options. There has never been anything except for social norms stopping an American girl from going to play a year and a half on the tour just like the Czechs. It is not typical for an American girl to do that, and it is probably more acceptable for a Eastern Euro to forego college for two years, but logistically an American kid could just as easily have done it.

In my experience Americans kids are a bit more realistic about their chances to "make it" (or lack thereof), and they also don't want to "miss out" while all of their friends go to college and make memories. Other than that, there has been nothing stopping them from traveling around North America or anywhere else and giving it a shot and then coming back to college as much more experienced and developed players.
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