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Old Dec 9th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #4576
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by angliru View Post
Yes, they have the Elite Division. This year a couple of WTA top 100 players have participated (Mona Barthel and Johanna Larsson). Sofia Arvidsson also used to play (she did so last year).

Caro has also played in "Elitedivisionen" but that was many years ago.

They've always used mixed teams but in 2013 there will be two Danish "Elite divisions" - one for men, and another for women. This has caused a lot of debate in tennis circles in Denmark, and some clubs or members are protesting wildly. I actually thinks it's a good idea.
Thanks for the info,Angliru
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Old Dec 9th, 2012, 07:48 AM   #4577
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
I'm not German, so others might be better qualified to answer your question about what political propaganda works best there, but I suspect it's "Don't blame us, blame them" just like in any other country.
Double screw up on my part...a real low point,actually;even if I turned the vertical Belgian stripes horizontally,it still wouldn't be a replica of the German flag which has red above yellow/gold/(whatever exactly it is)....my apologies to you,Jimmie and any visiting posters from the respective nations
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Old Dec 9th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #4578
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by angliru View Post
Yes, they have the Elite Division. This year a couple of WTA top 100 players have participated (Mona Barthel and Johanna Larsson). Sofia Arvidsson also used to play (she did so last year).

Caro has also played in "Elitedivisionen" but that was many years ago.

They've always used mixed teams but in 2013 there will be two Danish "Elite divisions" - one for men, and another for women. This has caused a lot of debate in tennis circles in Denmark, and some clubs or members are protesting wildly. I actually thinks it's a good idea.
Well if they want to be serious about it and try to produce top players from the Elitedivisionen - they can't play around with mixed teams all the time at the expense of separate cutthroat men and women real competition. But I'm not surprised at the protests.

Just about any activity when you want to change something to improve or move on with the times or the technology - the leaders have do it. A mistake to go democratic and give the vote to the members. They always vote for the status quo and nothing gets done. Then you have to overturn the democratic vote a year or two later when you are in the stone age compared to everywhere else. And it's not just sport. All sorts of things.

I remember not that long ago a great fear of computers and scare stories and how we mustn't go down that way. Through private companies making the decisions - we have computers at home and they are thought of in the same way as a telephone or TV or washing machine in the past. Then there's CCTV - terrible things and protests at loss of human rights etc. The government too scared to be upsetting people and breaching human rights. What happens? Companies go ahead and install them everywhere. And a great thing they are and that they can identify and prevent someone doing something illegal and/or intimidatory.
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Old Dec 9th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #4579
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Just for the record,I don't allow my contempt for the U.S. to blind me to the reality of their unfortunately-heavy economic influence on the world...nor am I unaware of the role that their military plays(though,due to piss-poor leadership,it's likely weaker than it's ever been since before WW #1--they now struggle badly even against undermanned foes with far less weapon technology and funding).There's even a very small number of them that I could even call 'friends'...although I should probably be ashamed to admit that

That being said,the claim in post #4570,that the Americans and their president are supposedly leaders of the free world,is just pathetic,mealy-mouthed crap...the sort of nonsense you'd expect from one of their political party campaigns.It MAY have been true during WW #2,or even the fight for freedom against the Eastern Bloc,but those days are long gone.Though we could debate their asinine policies that caused it,it's an empirical fact that the US has failed to reproduce its native-born population in adequate numbers(as is the case with Russia and a few other European nations,too).They are constantly borrowing money from China to pay for a bankrupt social security system,and even their politicians concede that they have no visible hope of producing revenue to ever pay those massive loans off...leaving them beholden to the PRC.Those are FACTS and not opinionations in ANY way.....Impressive 'leaders of the free world',huh?Actually,I shouldn't laugh because it's sad and will affect my OWN country unless we become more economically independent of that cesspool to the north....soon to change its name from USA to 'NAG': North American Greece

As for Annika Beck,she may be a very sweet gal,and her stupidity and ignorance shouldn't be any surprise as she has made her education a lesser priority,as do many tennis players,and likely thinks that 30-second CNN soundbytes count as 'research'.A student of history could see the clear parallels between the internal implosion of the overly-corrupted Roman Empire and the modern U.S.,and their president is "leading" the way.If THOSE are the leaders of freedom,then I'd rather have benevolent,well-intentioned anarchy
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Old Dec 9th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #4580
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
Double screw up on my part...a real low point,actually;even if I turned the vertical Belgian stripes horizontally,it still wouldn't be a replica of the German flag which has red above yellow/gold/(whatever exactly it is)....my apologies to you,Jimmie and any visiting posters from the respective nations
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Old Dec 10th, 2012, 05:13 PM   #4581
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Not sure what kind of political propaganda is popular in Germany,but Annika Beck brought embarrassment upon her intellectual rating just recently.She was asked what person in the world she'd like to meet,and one of her choices,Steffi Graf,made perfect sense....for her OTHER choice,she didn't pick some brave human rights crusader...or a talented musician...or a brilliant writer....or an heroic champion for the poor...or some great political leader...or ANYone who had bettered the world in any way: She chose Barack Obama;Saca la cabeza de tu culo,chica aleman mareada!....I hope that's not any reflection of the modern educational system in Germany as I have affection for your country due to my familial ancestry
Huh? What's wrong with wanting to meet Barack Obama? I'd love to as well...pretty much every German wants to. Before the election there have been polls here and 92% of all Germans would have voted for him, the highest in any country polled I think.

He's far, far more popular than any German politician and I don't see what's wrong with that. So Annika's answer is neither surprising nor wrong in any shape or form...I would have been shocked if she said she wants to meet Angela Merkel
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Old Dec 10th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #4582
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Huh? What's wrong with wanting to meet Barack Obama? I'd love to as well...pretty much every German wants to. Before the election there have been polls here and 92% of all Germans would have voted for him, the highest in any country polled I think.

He's far, far more popular than any German politician and I don't see what's wrong with that. So Annika's answer is neither surprising nor wrong in any shape or form...I would have been shocked if she said she wants to meet Angela Merkel
Well,I can't speak intelligently about either Merkel or Joachim Gauck,but I'd much rather meet my OWN president,whether a good leader or bad,than some incompetent buffoon from some OTHER country.If aye DID seek an audience with a foreign president,it would be someone who had actually accomplished something....of course,if you consider crippling an already-weak economy by running up a 7 TRILLION-dollar deficit in less than 4 years,then o-BUM-a is your guy

Why is he so popular in Germany?Did he promise a blow job to every German male in return for tariff concessions(and perhaps a vibrator for all the women?)?My guess is that Germans don't really pay close attention to what's happening in the US,and I can't blame them cuz it's not their country,but maybe they see him as some kind of hero who will impose pure-hearted,altruistic European-modelled socialism on the greedy,shallow gringos....Jimmie,if you had seen so many of your countrymen gunned down by automatic weapons...and you KNEW that the piece-of-shit American president had made a deal with arms dealers to not monitor foreign assault-weapons sales(i.e.,to our wealthier narcos who have plenty of money to buy them),then you might not be so quick to accept the bullshit that emanates from that vile fraud's propaganda machine

This wasn't a personal attack at all on you,Jimmie,but it's more personal for us in Mexico because it's not just political rhetoric...it's about life-and-death issues,as I indicate above...am off to work so will read any response later,but thank you for your input
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Old Dec 10th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #4583
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Okay, you obviously have huge issues with him and I don't really want to get into that, just to explain why Germans like Barack Obama so much:

Due to our history, far right & conservative political views are very, very unpopular here. For example, Germany is pretty much the only big European country that does not have a far-right political party of any significance. The only such party that exists is a miserable outcast nobody votes for and if you'd say publicly that you do people would probably spit on you. Rightfully so since they`re disgusting scumbags.

Issues like abortion, gay rights etc. are non-issues here, people don't understand why Americans are making fuss about it. So if Barack Obama comes out supporting gay marriage it's not some kind of sensation, people simply view him as sane...and that's why he's so popular here. G W Bush was loathed in Germany so people simply enjoy having a US President they can relate to. Another thing is that Germany isn't a very religious country, religion plays absolutely no role in politics... another reason why conservative Bible-quoting American politicians are mostly seen as weirdo clowns here and people prefer Obama.

As far as German's not knowing much about US politics, the media coverage of the elections was almost absurdly extensive here. There was months of coverage of all the primaries and five different channels covered the elections through the night. People were already complaining that it's too much. That dosen't mean that there aren't misconceptions about US politics...many people still fail to understand that American politics are much more right on the spectrum than German politics... the ruling conservative party in Germany would still be considered part of the Democratic left wing in the US. But still, Obama comes closest to what people consider a sane and "normal" politician.

I see that you have very specific issues with his politics that I can't comment on, you have to understand that blasting a 18-year old German girl for not sharing the same sentiments is somewhat silly. She simply see's him for what he is, an interesting and inspirational man and even though I don't agree with all his policies I would surely like to meet the man.
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Old Dec 11th, 2012, 06:19 AM   #4584
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by Jimmie48 View Post
Okay, you obviously have huge issues with him and I don't really want to get into that, just to explain why Germans like Barack Obama so much:

Due to our history, far right & conservative political views are very, very unpopular here. For example, Germany is pretty much the only big European country that does not have a far-right political party of any significance. The only such party that exists is a miserable outcast nobody votes for and if you'd say publicly that you do people would probably spit on you. Rightfully so since they`re disgusting scumbags.

Issues like abortion, gay rights etc. are non-issues here, people don't understand why Americans are making fuss about it. So if Barack Obama comes out supporting gay marriage it's not some kind of sensation, people simply view him as sane...and that's why he's so popular here. G W Bush was loathed in Germany so people simply enjoy having a US President they can relate to. Another thing is that Germany isn't a very religious country, religion plays absolutely no role in politics... another reason why conservative Bible-quoting American politicians are mostly seen as weirdo clowns here and people prefer Obama.

As far as German's not knowing much about US politics, the media coverage of the elections was almost absurdly extensive here. There was months of coverage of all the primaries and five different channels covered the elections through the night. People were already complaining that it's too much. That dosen't mean that there aren't misconceptions about US politics...many people still fail to understand that American politics are much more right on the spectrum than German politics... the ruling conservative party in Germany would still be considered part of the Democratic left wing in the US. But still, Obama comes closest to what people consider a sane and "normal" politician.

I see that you have very specific issues with his politics that I can't comment on, you have to understand that blasting a 18-year old German girl for not sharing the same sentiments is somewhat silly. She simply see's him for what he is, an interesting and inspirational man and even though I don't agree with all his policies I would surely like to meet the man.
Thank you for your intelligent,reasoned reply,Jimmie

First off,I really wasn't angry with Annika;as you know,I have a tendency to exaggerate a bit sometimes and I was just having a little fun at her expense.I don't expect much at all from an athlete or,for that matter,from ANY celebrity type.Rather,I expect them to spout off ignorant nonsense and ideology that they probably gleaned from blogs and Facebook

You confirmed much of what I suspected;I know that Germans aren't a stupid people by any stretch(my great-great-etc. grandfather was a wagon-maker in Prussia,btw).It's more a case of what you described: They hold hatred for the conservative elements in US society,so they support whoever opposes such philosophy...and don't really pay close attention to whether or not he's honest or remotely competent...it doesn't matter too much,of course,since Germans have their own issues to worry about without focusing on American politics.

I'll agree that his story is superficially inspirational when you study the history of oppression of negro-Americans,and the guy truly is an amazing speaker,one of the best I've ever seen at brainwashing the feeble-minded.However,when you strip away the glossy show,he's as empty as that guy behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.

You're a smart fellow,Jimmie,so Common Sense would tell you that,when you already have an economy in crisis,you don't run up a 7 trillion dollar spending deficit when you have NO HOPE of ever paying off such a staggering debt.It's simply a matter of time before even the PRC cuts off the broke US from any more sugar-daddy loans...and then the 'great empire' will suffer an embarrassing,total collapse and become a larger version of Greece...but the shit bag doesn't care,though,cuz he's financially set for life and he'll probably move overseas when things REALLY deteriorate

Though there's a sort of dark pleasure in watching the gringos destroy themselves on a grand scale,reality soon sets in as I know that,unless we develop a self-sufficient economy here in Mexico,we'll suffer awful ripple effects when the US falls....but I'll close by reminding you of your own experience with 'malandro'.I'm sure that you didn't enjoy being physically attacked,so how do you think I feel when I see a three-year-old girl gunned down just because her mommy works for the prosecutor's office??The US Attorney General is a walking pile of goat smegma--and close o-BUM-a friend--named Eric Holder,and he's made it abundantly clear that he's not going to prosecute US assault-weapon sales to foreign countries...EVEN IF THE ARMS DEALERS KNOWINGLY SELL TO NARCO LORDS(who knows what amount of kickbacks he's getting from the arms dealers??).He doesn't have a massive security detail like the president does,so poetic justice would be having his car break down in Juarez during a visit to my country.Though I could bitch-slap him all by myself and force him to polish my knob from his knees,it wouldn't be fair if I denied mis paisanos the satisfaction of taking turns as we slowly beat that waste-of-life within an inch of death...and then hung him from a lightpost with a message staked on his chest for the US Gov. to read when they dragged his worthless carcass back across the border...now THAT would be justice
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Old Dec 11th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #4585
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Okay,on a lighter note,here's a video classic from my culture to all of yours(English subtitles included)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIiXf1rg6h8
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Old Dec 11th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #4586
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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You confirmed much of what I suspected;I know that Germans aren't a stupid people by any stretch(my great-great-etc. grandfather was a wagon-maker in Prussia,btw).It's more a case of what you described: They hold hatred for the conservative elements in US society,so they support whoever opposes such philosophy...
That's not only true when it comes to Germany. Throughout Europe the vast majority preferred Obama over Romney by huge margins - probably by 80% or more in most countries. Republicans are viewed by many as dangerous, ignorant and heartless fruitcakes with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other. Strangely enough in most of Europe itself right wing parties are winning election after election, although it seems to be slowly turning around now.

But the last election in Belgium was also won by a right wing seperatist party even though a survey showed that the people who voted for them totally disagree with their political agenda. All this because the party leader is a charismatic figure who did very well in a daily quizz show over here where he won them over with his wicked sense of humour. Not much of a basis to vote for someone, but a clear demonstration of the fact that more often than not people have no idea what the're actually voting for.
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Old Dec 12th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #4587
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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That's not only true when it comes to Germany. Throughout Europe the vast majority preferred Obama over Romney by huge margins - probably by 80% or more in most countries. Republicans are viewed by many as dangerous, ignorant and heartless fruitcakes with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other. Strangely enough in most of Europe itself right wing parties are winning election after election, although it seems to be slowly turning around now.
Not only in Europe. In Quebec we have the same feeling about the Republicans. And beyond the feeling, every time they accede to power they ruin the States and trigger wars everywhere. Obama is not my idol, but the World is better off with him than with his opponents. That being said, Obama's comments suggest that he's almost as religious as Republicans. The separation of Church and State is pure utopia in this country.

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But the last election in Belgium was also won by a right wing seperatist party even though a survey showed that the people who voted for them totally disagree with their political agenda. All this because the party leader is a charismatic figure who did very well in a daily quizz show over here where he won them over with his wicked sense of humour. Not much of a basis to vote for someone, but a clear demonstration of the fact that more often than not people have no idea what the're actually voting for.
This is interesting. As well as Jimmie's comments on Germany. I always enjoy hearing about foreign policy.

That being said, and even if I agree that many people "have no idea what the're actually voting for" as you state, one must recognize that voting often involves difficult choices that go beyond superficial logic. In other words, we must give the benefit of the doubt to the voters, because behind what may seem to be a thoughtless choice, often lay a thoughtful and carefully considered choice. The problem is that the voter often have to choose between the "lesser of two evils". So he does not vote in consideration of his values ​​and opinions, but to avoid the worst.

For example, here in Quebec, we currently have a choice between a well established center-left party promoting Quebec sovereignty (PQ). A center-right party, also well established (PLQ). Or a newly formed right-wing party (from an economic POV)(CAQ). Despite repeated requests from the population, we don't have proportional representation, so every votes for minor parties are a waste. This already bring a problem, because the voter who would vote for the Green Party or for a left-wing party often stay at home since he knows that his vote has no impact.

Another major problem is that the center-left voter who doesn't want the independence is not represented. So, he will either stay at home, or he may vote for the center-right party, despite his socialist view.

But where things get complicated really is in the details. For example, the new right-wing party is essentially composed of young inexperienced politicians, often without qualifications or diplomas and even the party leaders are not particularly bright. So, even if you share their views, would you really vote for them?

The PQ has a nationalist program based on the protection of Quebec culture and language that does not appeals to immigrants and Anglophones and is seen by some (even French speakers)as racist and intolerant (well yes, the desire to protect our culture is apparently racist It's normal for everyone else but us). As I have said, if you're not sovereignists, or if you don't like their nationalist program, you'll vote for another party, even if you like their center-left ideas.

Finally, the PLQ (who has formed the government for the last 10 years)is currently strongly suspected of corruption and seems to have had disturbing relationships with the Mafia. Its deputies are also seen as arrogants and they have showed no respect for the population, its wishes and concerns. Would you vote for them?

To complete the portrait, none of these parties has proven to be particularly competent in the recent past. Thus, a reasonably intelligent voter can hardly vote with conviction and he has to make compromises between his values ​​and the incompetence and/or the corruption of his leaders. Which sometimes results in seemingly illogical choice, even if a processus of reflection is behind this choice.

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Old Dec 12th, 2012, 07:27 AM   #4588
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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But the last election in Belgium was also won by a right wing seperatist party even though a survey showed that the people who voted for them totally disagree with their political agenda. All this because the party leader is a charismatic figure who did very well in a daily quizz show over here where he won them over with his wicked sense of humour. Not much of a basis to vote for someone, but a clear demonstration of the fact that more often than not people have no idea what the're actually voting for.
With all due respect to our friendly chum Achemar,I've seen plenty of examples of this;though I understand why many folks identify with a certain political party,some folks take that to embarrassing extremes.Won't waste too much time discussing how the 2 big parties in the U.S. scheme to prevent any others from challenging their stranglehold but,as you can figure out,that not only limits choices it also produces candidates who are FAR less well-rounded.I've known some religious types who automatically voted for the GOP,and I've noticed some black-Americans(and many US Latinos)who don't even do one iota of research before voting for the Democrat;i.e.,if you somehow doctored the ballot to place a Ku Klux Klan member or a child molestor in the Democratic column,THAT'S whom they'd vote for

The other interesting point you touched on was the awesome power of the visual medium....IMO,behavioral psychology is the only branch of psychological studies that is a legit science because it is based so heavily on observed empirical data instead of empty conjecture and philosophy...and behavioral psychology shows that,though ALL of the media have the ability to strongly brainwash,the various visual media,such as TV,are the most effective.Even above-average thinkers can be unduly influenced there,and we don't need to mention what happens to the intellectually so-so or simpletons
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Old Dec 12th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #4589
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
With all due respect to our friendly chum Achemar,I've seen plenty of examples of this;though I understand why many folks identify with a certain political party,some folks take that to embarrassing extremes.Won't waste too much time discussing how the 2 big parties in the U.S. scheme to prevent any others from challenging their stranglehold but,as you can figure out,that not only limits choices it also produces candidates who are FAR less well-rounded.I've known some religious types who automatically voted for the GOP,and I've noticed some black-Americans(and many US Latinos)who don't even do one iota of research before voting for the Democrat;i.e.,if you somehow doctored the ballot to place a Ku Klux Klan member or a child molestor in the Democratic column,THAT'S whom they'd vote for

The other interesting point you touched on was the awesome power of the visual medium....IMO,behavioral psychology is the only branch of psychological studies that is a legit science because it is based so heavily on observed empirical data instead of empty conjecture and philosophy...and behavioral psychology shows that,though ALL of the media have the ability to strongly brainwash,the various visual media,such as TV,are the most effective.Even above-average thinkers can be unduly influenced there,and we don't need to mention what happens to the intellectually so-so or simpletons
Oh but don't worry, I am aware that Chrissie-fan's statement reflect the reality of many voters and that's why I wrote even if I agree that many people "have no idea what the're actually voting for". If I did not recognize this fact, I'd be worried for my sanity

It's nevertheless true that the results of an election include an arbitration between several factors. More often than not,the simplistic interpretation of media fails to discern the fundamental elements that have influenced the choice of the population.
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Old Dec 12th, 2012, 02:11 PM   #4590
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Originally Posted by Achernar View Post
Not only in Europe. In Quebec we have the same feeling about the Republicans.
Since we have turned this thread into a political soap box, I want to join and give my 25 cents too

I am personally finding the GOP a puzzle. An enigma. They have some solid, good people. Giuliani, ex NY mayor. Rick Perry, Governor of Texas and also Mitt Romney. As Governor of Massachusetts, he was instrumental in implementing health care reforms, a Democratic President would be proud to put his names to.

However, when someone is elected and runs for President for the GOP, it appears the party machines takes over and it's nothing but an anti gay, anti abortion, gun swinging, religious fanatics agenda.

Personally, I don't get it.
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