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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 01:17 AM   #4876
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Originally Posted by Nena_xxx View Post
Personally, I think that Caro has more chances to win GS now that all that pressure for being No.1 without GS is gone. But she has to play more aggressive, cos she can.
It didn't work that way at all for JJ and Dinara;if Caroline wins a Slam,I think it'll be attributable to notable improvements in her game and not any lack of pressure
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #4877
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Originally Posted by bruce goose View Post
It didn't work that way at all for JJ and Dinara;if Caroline wins a Slam,I think it'll be attributable to notable improvements in her game and not any lack of pressure
True, but Caro is younger than JJ and Dinara. And even though she had gotten tight against Serena and Kim, she's mentally tougher than JJ and Dinara. If Dinara had half of Caro's positive mentality, she'd at least won one of her Slam Finals.

I do however want Caro to use Vika's success as motivation for herself. If she wants to be back on top then she'll need to really dig in and work.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #4878
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

Man, I am still massively disappointed over the loss to Clijsters. It was totally unnecessary in my opinion. Like in the Serena match, it's like she wasn't "there", didn't believe she could win at all.

Even had to stay away from TF for a couple of days.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #4879
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Originally Posted by backhandsmash View Post
Man, I am still massively disappointed over the loss to Clijsters. It was totally unnecessary in my opinion. Like in the Serena match, it's like she wasn't "there", didn't believe she could win at all.

Even had to stay away from TF for a couple of days.
I think I know what you mean. In the two matches you mentioned, as well as against Na Li last year, Caroline played scared for long stretches of the matches, you could probably even add the match against Cibulkova at Wimbledon to the list. She did look much better halfway through the second set against Kim but by then it was too late.

When you compare Caroline to the four semi-finalists I think a big difference is that they never look beaten. Unfortunately in big matches Caroline often looks like she doesn't believe she can win or that she is helpless to turn the match around. Once she gets that scared look you know she is in big trouble.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #4880
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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When you compare Caroline to the four semi-finalists I think a big difference is that they never look beaten. Unfortunately in big matches Caroline often looks like she doesn't believe she can win or that she is helpless to turn the match around. Once she gets that scared look you know she is in big trouble.
Are you taking the piss?
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #4881
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Are you taking the piss?
I am specifically referring to big matches against the top players. These are matches that do not happen very often but when they do Caroline has not done well in them.

Let's use Sharapova as an example. She has had a rough few years and had some bad losses but she never looks beaten.

What would you say was her biggest win?
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #4882
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Originally Posted by DownInAHole View Post
I am specifically referring to big matches against the top players. These are matches that do not happen very often but when they do Caroline has not done well in them.

Let's use Sharapova as an example. She has had a rough few years and had some bad losses but she never looks beaten.

What would you say was her biggest win?
They don't happen often is the key... Vika didn't do a lot more than Caroline vs Kim tbh, she was steady when Kim lost the plot keeping her under pressure to perform, as did Caroline.

Sharapova has looked very beaten in the past (out come the drop volleys), Remember USO & IW?

Its a hell of a lot easier to look good if your game is one dimensional... It takes tactical experience under pressure if it isn't, a mastery of a larger tool set.

Will that improve with age? Impossible to say, but historically it has for players with her kind of game.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #4883
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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They don't happen often is the key... Vika didn't do a lot more than Caroline vs Kim tbh, she was steady when Kim lost the plot keeping her under pressure to perform, as did Caroline.

Sharapova has looked very beaten in the past (out come the drop volleys), Remember USO & IW?

Its a hell of a lot easier to look good if your game is one dimensional... It takes tactical experience under pressure if it isn't, a mastery of a larger tool set.

Will that improve with age? Impossible to say, but historically it has for players with her kind of game.
Maybe you are right but there is a huge difference, Viktoria was able to beat Kim, Caroline was not. During the first set and a half Caroline looked very scared against Kim. With Viktoria, even after the shellacking she took in that second set, she never looked scared.

Now, the match in Sydney against Serena in 2009 was one time where Caroline most definitely did not look scared but I would argue that may have been because she was not expected to win that match and there was very little pressure on her.

Here's the "problem," as I see it, with Caroline. Let me be clear, she absolutely deserved to be ranked number one as long as she was. She earned those points and if the slam winners are really superior then they would have done much better over the course of the entire season and not all lost early the slam after their big win. However, Caroline has rarely needed to play and beat the best players to win. Arguably her biggest win was in the 2009 US Open semi-finals where she defeated...Yanina Wickmayer. There was also Montreal, 2010 (Zvonareva), Tokyo, 2010 (Dementieva), Beijing, 2010 (Zvonareva), Dubai, 2011 (Kuznetsova) and Indian Wells, 2011 (Bartoli). All of these are very respectable titles for her to have won and she should be very proud to have won each and every one of them but her opponents in the finals, with the possible exception of Vera, were not the top players or players that were playing exceptionally well. When Caroline does run into the very best players or players that are playing exceptionally well she often loses badly. She has trouble halting their momentum and taking control of matches.

Now, of course Caroline can not be blamed for who her opponents are. If the "better" players that I am talking about are so great then they should have been making those finals and beating Caroline. What I am worried about is since Indian Wells we have not seen Caroline hoist one of the bigger trophies (no, I am not just referring to the slams). Her titles since then have been relatively small (Brussels, Copenhagen, New Haven). Now, more often than not, Caroline is either being eliminated before she gets a chance to play the other top ten/top five players or when she does meet them she is defeated rather handily.

Maybe I am being impatient and I am guilty of not having faith in her, after all it is very early in the season, but there is a pattern going back to last March where she has been unable to score any big wins. Since Indian Wells the only top ten wins she has had were over Jankovic, Schiavone and Radwanska. She hasn't beaten a top five player since the tour championships in 2010. If she is going to continue to improve and eventually win a slam she is going to need to figure out a way to beat the other top players and she does not seem to be making any progress in that area.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #4884
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Eh, I think that "constant whining" is a bit of an exaggeration, I only do this four times a year.

Historically, the number one ranked player does well at the slams and the other tournaments. If you look at Kim and Lindsay and the times they gained the number one ranking without having won a slam they were still at least making slam finals. Caroline has held the number one ranking for well over a year which is a tremendous accomplishment but if you compare her to other players that have been number one for that long it underscores how poorly she has done at the slams. Caroline does catch an awful lot of unfair criticism but I think it is perfectly valid to point out the fact that as the number one ranked player she has not lived up to expectations at the slams. At the same time you can make a case that outside the slams she performed extraordinarily well, at least until last summer/fall. The fact that she hasn't won a slam or made a slam final means that she had to collect an awful lot of points at the other tournaments and that she was much better, overall, than the players that did win at the slams. I guess the thing that frustrates me is that, so far, she has been unable to jump that final hurdle and play her best at the slams. Over the last three years she has made steady progress from winning small tournaments to big tournaments but she hasn't quite managed to win the biggest tournaments and it looks like her game is levelling off. After making the US Open final in 2009 she has taken a backward step at that tournament and the same is true at the Australian Open (last year SF, this year QF).

If she is not able to do substantially better at the next two slams than she did at them last year (anything less than the quarters and/or semis will be a big disappointment) brace yourself for more of my "whining" in May/June/July.
OK - let me explain what irritated me about your post. It was really you bringing in the #1 thing. Chrissie Fan and Goldenlox had already pointed out that #1 and winning slams are entirely different skills. That has got more so over the years. In the nineties and before - that didn't happen. And it's as if you just don't seem to want to accept it. It's happening more nowadays with the way the game has developed and with Caro it's more so because of the type of player she is. It's much easier for her to have been the best over a year than win a slam.

You see I don't mind you being diappointed with Caro and pointing out a decine since IW or whatever. But by saying effectively that she's a bad #1 because a #1 should win slams - you are deriding what she has already achieved.

Last year - you made a post on her results going downhill. I thought it was premature. But you were right on that. But when you attack her by linking her #1 to a slam - you are actually attacking her achievement getting the #1 and running that down That's what I don't like about your post.

The fact that she was #1 didn't make her favourite to win those slams. Look at the bookies odds for a far more realistic view.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #4885
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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OK - let me explain what irritated me about your post. It was really you bringing in the #1 thing. Chrissie Fan and Goldenlox had already pointed out that #1 and winning slams are entirely different skills. That has got more so over the years. In the nineties and before - that didn't happen. And it's as if you just don't seem to want to accept it. It's happening more nowadays with the way the game has developed and with Caro it's more so because of the type of player she is. It's much easier for her to have been the best over a year than win a slam.

You see I don't mind you being diappointed with Caro and pointing out a decine since IW or whatever. But by saying effectively that she's a bad #1 because a #1 should win slams - you are deriding what she has already achieved.

Last year - you made a post on her results going downhill. I thought it was premature. But you were right on that. But when you attack her by linking her #1 to a slam - you are actually attacking her achievement getting the #1 and running that down That's what I don't like about your post.

The fact that she was #1 didn't make her favourite to win those slams. Look at the bookies odds for a far more realistic view.
It is probably a good idea to ignore my posts after her losses, particularly at the slams. I always tend to get a bit bitchy after her losses.

The thing is I don't necessarily expect her to even win slams, if she keeps improving that is enough for me. Last year I was gutted, as I'm sure we all were, by the loss to Li but I was very heartened by the fact that she did so well at the Australian Open by making the semi-final (her previous best result being the fourth round). Her results immediately after (Dubai-win, Doha-final, Indian Wells-win, Charleston-win, Stuttgart-final) were phenomenal and suggested that she was improving. That's one reason that I was extremely disappointed with what happened at Roland Garros (lost in the third round) and Wimbledon (lost in the fourth round). I didn't expect her to win either of them but I really believed that the quarters/semis were well within her reach. An early loss at one event would have been fine if she had gone deep at the other. Since then her results have been more like the pre 2010 Copenhagen Caroline.

It just seems like she is going backwards and it is frustrating. I keep waiting for her to bounce back but so far it hasn't happened.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #4886
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

@DIAH

Its not just after losses...

The main issue is looking at the wider picture... not just cherry picking.

Of the four Slams only two suit Caro's game at all. 2011 saw huge changes, some crazy decisions, coach upheaval, and injuries she still wears wrappings for... The next months will be interesting regarding the caching situation in particular... Changes should start to creep in (although clay kind of gets in the way).

Things are currently tight at the top with a bucket of pressure heading the way of No1 to No3, We shall see what happens, They are the new "future" allegedly, and they play a very different game to Kim and Serena. A very solid case can be made that at 21 Caro has done a lot better than expected, and is way ahead of her development curve. I would be a hell of a lot more concerned if I was a fan of her contemporaries, or the generation that was supposed to have pushed the old guard off the top shelf.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #4887
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Things are currently tight at the top with a bucket of pressure heading the way of No1 to No3, We shall see what happens, They are the new "future" allegedly, and they play a very different game to Kim and Serena. A very solid case can be made that at 21 Caro has done a lot better than expected, and is way ahead of her development curve. I would be a hell of a lot more concerned if I was a fan of her contemporaries, or the generation that was supposed to have pushed the old guard off the top shelf.
You would be worried if you were a fan of Kvitova, Azarenka, Radwanska or Lisicki? Why? All of them have made huge progress the last year or so. Only Pavlyuchenkova fans seem to have something to worry about at the moment.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #4888
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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You would be worried if you were a fan of Kvitova, Azarenka, Radwanska or Lisicki? Why? All of them have made huge progress the last year or so. Only Pavlyuchenkova fans seem to have something to worry about at the moment.
I will answer that in the General thread.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #4889
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

Its true that Caro's slam loses give the impression that something is wrong.
She could play better than most of the Kim match, and Serena match. Certainly the Hantuchova loss.
Even worse was blowing leads vs Li and Cibulkova.

Thats something that she has to improve on.
Slams are the big matches, not the only matches, but the biggest. And she has to show up & fight all match every match.

For a player who fights like Caroline does, in nonmajors, she has to do that in majors.

She never gets beaten in New Haven. She never has a Hantuchova type match there.
That kind of every match consistency has to be not only New Haven, but slams too
I think New Haven gets her ready for the USO, and she has her best results there. But that has to happen all majors.
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Old Jan 26th, 2012, 08:46 PM   #4890
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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@DIAH

Its not just after losses...

The main issue is looking at the wider picture... not just cherry picking.

Of the four Slams only two suit Caro's game at all. 2011 saw huge changes, some crazy decisions, coach upheaval, and injuries she still wears wrappings for... The next months will be interesting regarding the caching situation in particular... Changes should start to creep in (although clay kind of gets in the way).

Things are currently tight at the top with a bucket of pressure heading the way of No1 to No3, We shall see what happens, They are the new "future" allegedly, and they play a very different game to Kim and Serena. A very solid case can be made that at 21 Caro has done a lot better than expected, and is way ahead of her development curve. I would be a hell of a lot more concerned if I was a fan of her contemporaries, or the generation that was supposed to have pushed the old guard off the top shelf.
That seems to be the general consensus but I have never bought into it. Prior to 2011 Na Li had never advanced past the fourth round at Roland Garros. Caroline wasn't spectacular on clay last year but she was also far from bad making the final at Stuttgart, the semi-final of Rome and winning Brussels. She may not be a favourite to win at Roland Garros but surely she is capable of better than the third round?

Wimbledon will be trickier for her as it favours the "power" players with huge serves but even there I think she can do better. She was close to the quarters last year.

I agree that if she is going to win a slam it will likely be on a hardcourt but I think she can win on the other surfaces and certainly she can go deeper than she did last year.
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