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Old Feb 6th, 2011, 05:16 PM   #16
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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Originally Posted by Embittered View Post
Some unglamorous examples, involving, it pains me to say, British players.

Liz Ullathorne isn't setting the world on fire as Texas Tech's number 1. And yesterday Houston were (you can read that as "was", if you like) surprisingly competitive against Rice, in part because Dionne Sanders at number 1 pushed the rest of the team down.
dunno much about both teams, but MacFarlane is #15 ranked, and Hanle beat Natasha Marks twice (including this Riviera), so.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 12:09 AM   #17
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

I watched the Stanford match against UCLA the other day. And when I look at the players who played 2-4 for Stanford, it is beyond my ability as a tennis observer to put them in order of strength. There are aspects of all Ahn, Gibbs, and Burdette's games for one argue that she is the strongest player of the bunch. (For that matter, there are days when that is also true for Tan.)

Part of the thrill of sports, is that we do not know the outcome ahead of time. That we can not always tell who is the stronger.

Anyway, for right now, I wondered if Burdette was played at #4 because she is coming back from an injury, and is her spot "frozen"? Or, if she gets 5% better, would it be fair or unfair by the rules that she be moved to #3 or #2?
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 01:22 AM   #18
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

It is not as surprising to see a former # 1 go downward due to injury, burn out or whatever as it is to see a non-freshman suddenly jump 3 and 4 spots over other returning teammates. To me that reaks of a stack to push the ladder down.

I went and read the ITA rules on their web site. Three rules seem pretty clear. The first is no jumping two spots over other teammates from one match to another no matter what reason. After six matches no adjusting your line up based on challenge matches so some reason or logic must be present such as the player above is losing while the player below is winning. Third was that line up changes must be justified and that you cannot simply switch players to gain a better match up. There has been a lot of that posted on tennis forum already and it is illegal. You cannot make a switch just for match up if the girl above is consistently winning in her position decent players.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 02:01 AM   #19
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

I don't think it says that.
Here is a link to Friend at Court 2010, (about page 244) and a relevant cut and paste is below.


2. Only physically able players shall be listed in the line-up. Coaches shall
list players in the line-up only if they are able to play.
3. Players must play in order of ability. The line-up shall always be based
on order of ability. “Matching up” is prohibited. In singles, players must
compete in order of ability with the best player on the team playing at
the No. 1 position, the second best at No. 2, and so on through all
positions. In case of injury or sickness, all players must move up. This
rule shall also apply to doubles play with the strongest doubles team at
No. 1, etc.
a. A player who has established a winning record at a team position
in six team matches and whose results show that he clearly is
stronger than the players below him may not be moved down. The
line-up must stay in order of ability.
b. If a top-six player (or team) clearly is stronger than the player
immediately above him, then the player must be moved up a
position.
c. Players of equal ability and equal record may alternate between
two adjacent positions so long as the alternating is not done for
the purpose of “matching up.”
d. A player shall not be moved down in the line-up because of:
i. An injury that has lasted and forced the player out of the
lineup for less than three weeks;
INTERCOLLEGIATE TENNIS ASSOCIATION (ITA) REGULATIONS 263
264 INTERCOLLEGIATE TENNIS ASSOCIATION (ITA) REGULATIONS
ii. Disciplinary measures; or
iii. Challenge matches after six team matches have been played
after January 1st of a school year.
4. Line-up changes in back-to-back dual matches. In back-to-back dual
meet matches (two consecutive dual meet matches played regardless of
time between matches), the team line-up (as played) may be changed. A
player may move up or down one position in this situation. The line-up
must still stay in order of ability.
5. Line-up changes once a match has begun .....
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 03:00 AM   #20
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd_serve View Post
I watched the Stanford match against UCLA the other day. And when I look at the players who played 2-4 for Stanford, it is beyond my ability as a tennis observer to put them in order of strength. There are aspects of all Ahn, Gibbs, and Burdette's games for one argue that she is the strongest player of the bunch. (For that matter, there are days when that is also true for Tan.)

Part of the thrill of sports, is that we do not know the outcome ahead of time. That we can not always tell who is the stronger.

Anyway, for right now, I wondered if Burdette was played at #4 because she is coming back from an injury, and is her spot "frozen"? Or, if she gets 5% better, would it be fair or unfair by the rules that she be moved to #3 or #2?
I agree with this. There's really not much difference between those 3 (and on some days, also Tan, as you say. Tan crushed Poorta last season. It was a total blow-out). And THAT makes Stanford so invincible. Really, Amalgamate worrying about 5,6 position is maddening to other teams Tan at #5?

Yes Tan lost to Montez, but Montez is THAT good, she's one of the most solid players in that position. Tan also almost beat former Riviera champion McKenna at UNLV invite. And even Li lost 46, 46 to Johansson, former #3 for UCLA!!
Let's also not forget that Li defeated Hitimana to help Stanford win the championship.

As far as I know this is one of the best NCAA teams EVER. (yes, I watched only from the Liu era, but)
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 06:42 AM   #21
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd_serve View Post
I don't think it says that.
Here is a link to Friend at Court 2010, (about page 244) and a relevant cut and paste is below.


2. Only physically able players shall be listed in the line-up. Coaches shall
list players in the line-up only if they are able to play.
3. Players must play in order of ability. The line-up shall always be based
on order of ability. “Matching up” is prohibited. In singles, players must
compete in order of ability with the best player on the team playing at
the No. 1 position, the second best at No. 2, and so on through all
positions. In case of injury or sickness, all players must move up. This
rule shall also apply to doubles play with the strongest doubles team at
No. 1, etc.
a. A player who has established a winning record at a team position
in six team matches and whose results show that he clearly is
stronger than the players below him may not be moved down. The
line-up must stay in order of ability.
b. If a top-six player (or team) clearly is stronger than the player
immediately above him, then the player must be moved up a
position.
c. Players of equal ability and equal record may alternate between
two adjacent positions so long as the alternating is not done for
the purpose of “matching up.”
d. A player shall not be moved down in the line-up because of:
i. An injury that has lasted and forced the player out of the
lineup for less than three weeks;
INTERCOLLEGIATE TENNIS ASSOCIATION (ITA) REGULATIONS 263
264 INTERCOLLEGIATE TENNIS ASSOCIATION (ITA) REGULATIONS
ii. Disciplinary measures; or
iii. Challenge matches after six team matches have been played
after January 1st of a school year.
4. Line-up changes in back-to-back dual matches. In back-to-back dual
meet matches (two consecutive dual meet matches played regardless of
time between matches), the team line-up (as played) may be changed. A
player may move up or down one position in this situation. The line-up
must still stay in order of ability.
5. Line-up changes once a match has begun .....
I do believe it does say that.

3. Players must play in order of ability. The line-up shall always be based on order of ability. “Matching up” is prohibited. In singles, players must compete in order of ability with the best player on the team playing at
the No. 1 position, the second best at No. 2, and so on through all positions. In case of injury or sickness, all players must move up. This rule shall also apply to doubles play with the strongest doubles team at No. 1, etc.
a. A player who has established a winning record at a team position in six team matches and whose results show that he clearly is stronger than the players below him may not be moved down. The line-up must stay in order of ability. No unjustified changes to change the ladder.
b. If a top-six player (or team) clearly is stronger than the player immediately above him, then the player must be moved up a position. So if someone’s # 2 continues to lose every match while # 3 is 15-4 then a move should occur.
c. Players of equal ability and equal record may alternate between two adjacent positions so long as the alternating is not done for the purpose of “matching up.” Cal Poly alternated their top two girls every match last year which was legal. They were both very good. I also watched a team visit LB and make a one match change at # 1 last year for a better match up and it worked. The next match their coach flipped them back to the same order they played the entire season. Illegal under this rule.
d. A player shall not be moved down in the line-up because of:
i. An injury that has lasted and forced the player out of the lineup for less than three weeks;
INTERCOLLEGIATE TENNIS ASSOCIATION (ITA) REGULATIONS 263 264 INTERCOLLEGIATE TENNIS ASSOCIATION (ITA) REGULATIONS
ii. Disciplinary measures; or
iii. Challenge matches after six team matches have been played after January 1st of a school year. A coach cannot use a challenge match as an excuse for making changes that are not reflected in dual match results after the first six matches.
4. Line-up changes in back-to-back dual matches. In back-to-back dual meet matches (two consecutive dual meet matches played regardless of time between matches), the team line-up (as played) may be changed. A player may move up or down one position in this situation. The line-up must still stay in order of ability. No multi spot jumps at any time during the year as has been identified on tennisforum several times this season already.

As I read these rules I do believe they say exactly what I previously posted.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 04:26 PM   #22
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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Originally Posted by beachman49 View Post
c. Players of equal ability and equal record may alternate between two adjacent positions so long as the alternating is not done for the purpose of “matching up.” Cal Poly alternated their top two girls every match last year which was legal. They were both very good. I also watched a team visit LB and make a one match change at # 1 last year for a better match up and it worked. The next match their coach flipped them back to the same order they played the entire season. Illegal under this rule.
The LB coach is beginning to be known for reporting violations, even on teams that LB doesn't play, where it is none of their business. LB overall, is very shady.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 05:28 PM   #23
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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The LB coach is beginning to be known for reporting violations, even on teams that LB doesn't play, where it is none of their business. LB overall, is very shady.
There are third-party protests though...which encourage this. And let's face it, a lot of times coaches don't have the courage to call out other teams. I on the other hand applaud a coaches' decision to point out when rules are being broken. And even though LB doesn't play that team...you have to remember how the rankings work...you have to beat teams that beat other top teams.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 05:46 PM   #24
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

tennisbuddy12, who cheated and got caught? What are you talking about? If you weren't cheating than why would it matter to you? Who cheated and got caught tennisbuddy? So it is the witnesses fault that that school got caught cheating rather than the fact they actually cheated. Sounds like NCAA football violations.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 05:56 PM   #25
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbuddy12 View Post
The LB coach is beginning to be known for reporting violations, even on teams that LB doesn't play, where it is none of their business. LB overall, is very shady.
BINGO!
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 06:00 PM   #26
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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Originally Posted by beachman49 View Post
tennisbuddy12, who cheated and got caught? What are you talking about? If you weren't cheating than why would it matter to you? Who cheated and got caught tennisbuddy? So it is the witnesses fault that that school got caught cheating rather than the fact they actually cheated. Sounds like NCAA football violations.
Okay, 1 I'm a guy. 2, I don't play college tennis and 3. Why would I tell you??

LB did a 3rd party protest on a school not knowing what went down (injuries specifically, I know, you shouldn't alter a lineup, even if injuries are involved). The school violated the rule, but not on purpose like some schools do. The main and only reason really I have have a problem with LB is their reasoning. That's all I will say. LB did it as a personal attack on this team.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 06:21 PM   #27
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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Originally Posted by gouci View Post
BINGO!
tennisbuddy, a rule is a rule. I applaud that you said the rule was broken no matter the excuses. It does seems a very simple rule and tennisforum readers have already pointed out several violations this year. It is sad in America that cheaters complain about being caught.

gouci does thou protest to much.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 08:04 PM   #28
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

This board is as crazy as the political world where someone cheats, they get reported, and the spin machine makes the one who reported the violation the villain. And just to be factual here, at a minimum, LBSU, Cal Poly, and UCSB brought UCI's unethical action to the conference during the tournament so I guess 1/3 of the Big West is "shady" and not the (ch)eaters. And as to reporting 3rd party teams, I do not know the details but it appears the NCAA is soliciting reporting to help clean up this practice and not to make the reporting team "shady". Gouci has it down that if you keep repeating the bull people will start to buy it. Oh, I better stop typing here since I am a LBSU fan and the censorship hammer may come down hard on me .

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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 08:24 PM   #29
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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Originally Posted by RobertCB View Post
This board is as crazy as the political world where someone cheats, they get reported, and the spin machine makes the one who reported the violation the villain. And just to be factual here, LBSU, Cal Poly, and UCSB brought UCI's unethical action to the conference during the tournament so I guess 1/3 of the Big West is "shady" and not the (ch)eaters or any other. And as to reporting 3rd party teams, I do not know the details but it appears the NCAA is soliciting reporting to help clean up this practice. Gouci has it down that if you keep repeating the bull people will start to buy it. Oh, I better stop typing here since I am a LBSU fan and the censorship hammer may come down hard on me .
There are times, in tennis and politics, where someone makes a false accusation of cheating, for their own agenda. Just because someone calls another a cheater, does not make it so. And yes, in essence that person who knowingly and purposefully calls another a cheater when it is false, does not look good. (I am saying that generally, not implying that it applies to a particular case.)

Visibility, maybe transparency and chance for pubic inspection of what happened, will not assure a just result, but will bend the process in that direction. That's a reason that I am thankful for TennisAce opening up a thread on violations.

Finally, I think it is good if Long Beach State is filing protests when a third team breaks the order of strength rules. For me, technology should file an automatic protest when a player is jumped over teammates in back to back matches, rather than relying on someone brave and with civic concern needing to report it.
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Old Feb 8th, 2011, 09:37 PM   #30
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Re: Order of Strength Discussion

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...For me, technology should file an automatic protest when a player is jumped over teammates in back to back matches, rather than relying on someone brave and with civic concern needing to report it.
An automatic review would be great but I do not think there would be enough available resources to review all of the potential conflicts. And putting your end of the sentence sarcasm aside, the NCAA will probably continue to ask its body to self police and report "potential" violations with the understanding that the reporting party may not be privy to all of the material facts; and therefore, not stigmatize the reporting as filing a "false accusation of cheating".

Last edited by RobertCB : Feb 8th, 2011 at 09:45 PM.
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