What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems? - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:06 AM   #1
MakarovaFan
Senior Member
 
MakarovaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,387
MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future
What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

For the players Is it harder to deal with injuries or mental blocks??
As a player(and i have dabbled in ATP satelite events) my problems are mental and i defintely feel like those are far more frustrating because you can always comeback from an injury but once something becomes mental(depending on your head) there may never be a solution! Plus the feeling of playing perfectly in practice only to do a 180 in the actual match has to be one of the most torturous and depressing things i personally have experienced!
__________________
~Elena Makarova~goddess of tennis
New Breed: Maria,Anastasia Myskina,Nicole,Ana,Tatiana Golovin,Jelena J,Iveta Benesova,Olga Poutchkova,Camille Pin,Maria Kirilenko,Alonya Bondarenko,Meilen Tu,Sania Mirza,Rezai,Ashley H,Tataina Poutchek,Sandra Kloesel,Klara Z,Mirjana Lucic,Dominka Cibulkova,Emauelle Gagliardi,Jelena Kostanic,Iroda,Martina Sucha,Raluca Olaru,Kveta,Marta D,Bethanie,Bychkova

Lilia Osterloh,Viktoriya Kutuzova,Yurika Sema,Anastasia Pivavrova(?),Stanislava Hrozenska,Marie-Eve,Zsofia,Angelika Roesch,Sunitha Rao,Anne Keothavang,Olivia Sanchez,Angela Haynes,Alex S,Jelena Dokic,Rosana De Los Rios,Kristina Brandi,Eva Fislova,Lindsay Lee

Elena Makarova,Anna K, Capriati,Lindsay,Henrieta Nagyova,Anca Barna,Petra Mandula,Jana Kandarr,
MakarovaFan is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:08 AM   #2
country flag goldenlox
Senior Member
 
goldenlox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: cyberspace
Posts: 86,393
goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Physical problems are much worse. Most of the time when people say mental problems, the real reason for the loss is that their game has a weakness in it.
Physical problems, like Safina & Sharapova, they can screw over your whole career.
__________________
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter....
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there
Enjoy This Moment!!
HEALTH and HAPPINESS to EVERYONE

goldenlox is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:11 AM   #3
country flag SELVEN
I will always miss you Kim Clijsters.
 
SELVEN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,549
SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future SELVEN has a brilliant future
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

The former,beacuse it will be never healed.
__________________
Ana Ivanovic❤
Life is a journey,I don't know where I will be.

My Twitter
SELVEN is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:20 AM   #4
MakarovaFan
Senior Member
 
MakarovaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,387
MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
Physical problems are much worse. Most of the time when people say mental problems, the real reason for the loss is that their game has a weakness in it.
Physical problems, like Safina & Sharapova, they can screw over your whole career.
Think carefully about what you said.....Maria no longer has a physical problem,its all mental. See her injury lead her to have mental problems but then injury went away and she is still left with the mental issues!!!
__________________
~Elena Makarova~goddess of tennis
New Breed: Maria,Anastasia Myskina,Nicole,Ana,Tatiana Golovin,Jelena J,Iveta Benesova,Olga Poutchkova,Camille Pin,Maria Kirilenko,Alonya Bondarenko,Meilen Tu,Sania Mirza,Rezai,Ashley H,Tataina Poutchek,Sandra Kloesel,Klara Z,Mirjana Lucic,Dominka Cibulkova,Emauelle Gagliardi,Jelena Kostanic,Iroda,Martina Sucha,Raluca Olaru,Kveta,Marta D,Bethanie,Bychkova

Lilia Osterloh,Viktoriya Kutuzova,Yurika Sema,Anastasia Pivavrova(?),Stanislava Hrozenska,Marie-Eve,Zsofia,Angelika Roesch,Sunitha Rao,Anne Keothavang,Olivia Sanchez,Angela Haynes,Alex S,Jelena Dokic,Rosana De Los Rios,Kristina Brandi,Eva Fislova,Lindsay Lee

Elena Makarova,Anna K, Capriati,Lindsay,Henrieta Nagyova,Anca Barna,Petra Mandula,Jana Kandarr,
MakarovaFan is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:27 AM   #5
country flag goldenlox
Senior Member
 
goldenlox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: cyberspace
Posts: 86,393
goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute goldenlox has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

I think that injury and the time off and the different service motions are all physical.
You can say Dinara's back isn't a problem now either, but that time off and all the problems it caused were physical.
They are not the same players anymore. I dont think Maria suddenly became a mental case. She went thru a lot just get back on the tour.
__________________
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter....
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there
Enjoy This Moment!!
HEALTH and HAPPINESS to EVERYONE

goldenlox is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #6
MakarovaFan
Senior Member
 
MakarovaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,387
MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I think that injury and the time off and the different service motions are all physical.
You can say Dinara's back isn't a problem now either, but that time off and all the problems it caused were physical.
They are not the same players anymore. I dont think Maria suddenly became a mental case. She went thru a lot just get back on the tour.
Dinara obviously still has issues with her back as even she herself has said it but Maria.....the lack of aggresion,the tenativeness,pushing and guiding the ball,the doubt she never used to have,the nervous double faults......that's all mental(minus some of the doubles) trust me, especially when in practice she excels!
__________________
~Elena Makarova~goddess of tennis
New Breed: Maria,Anastasia Myskina,Nicole,Ana,Tatiana Golovin,Jelena J,Iveta Benesova,Olga Poutchkova,Camille Pin,Maria Kirilenko,Alonya Bondarenko,Meilen Tu,Sania Mirza,Rezai,Ashley H,Tataina Poutchek,Sandra Kloesel,Klara Z,Mirjana Lucic,Dominka Cibulkova,Emauelle Gagliardi,Jelena Kostanic,Iroda,Martina Sucha,Raluca Olaru,Kveta,Marta D,Bethanie,Bychkova

Lilia Osterloh,Viktoriya Kutuzova,Yurika Sema,Anastasia Pivavrova(?),Stanislava Hrozenska,Marie-Eve,Zsofia,Angelika Roesch,Sunitha Rao,Anne Keothavang,Olivia Sanchez,Angela Haynes,Alex S,Jelena Dokic,Rosana De Los Rios,Kristina Brandi,Eva Fislova,Lindsay Lee

Elena Makarova,Anna K, Capriati,Lindsay,Henrieta Nagyova,Anca Barna,Petra Mandula,Jana Kandarr,
MakarovaFan is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:52 AM   #7
country flag duhcity
moderately sarcastic
 
duhcity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,906
duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute duhcity has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Is the injury like a blister? Or a Dinara/Maria case?

If then, it's the physical injury. Because even if you do recover, it'll be there mentally.
__________________

instargram
duhcity is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #8
country flag Horizon
Senior Member
 
Horizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London
Posts: 2,280
Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future Horizon has a brilliant future
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony. View Post
Is the injury like a blister? Or a Dinara/Maria case?

If then, it's the physical injury. Because even if you do recover, it'll be there mentally.
Exactly... so surely mental problems are worse?


Take the Seles incident:
Physically, it took her a while for her body to recover; hospital, bandages etc.
But mentally, she was never quite the same. Isn't that what really hurt her?
__________________
. . . Ana Ivanović.
s.Lisicki, Li.n
Horizon is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:00 AM   #9
country flag Elisse
Senior Member
 
Elisse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Wishing I was there...
Posts: 16,210
Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute Elisse has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Mental problems are far worse than injuries. Though injuries are frustrating, especially if you are prone to them...the mental aspect is more debilitating, always having in your mind the prospect of the next injury etc...

Also mental insecurities can be from all different parts of life, not just the tennis...yes worrying that you can't win a match, thinking that you are not good enough to play at the highest level, lack of confidence, worrying about retaining ranking points, plus the constant feeling that you need to play perfectly but also in private parts of life too...relationships, missing home and family, financial problems, pressure from Federations/sponsors can all contribute to mental weakness, and when you have those doubts about different aspects of life it all just builds up and can make the person feel totally out of control. If you have an injury...even a serious knee injury for example, you have the operation, you do the physio, you recover and you come back and play. Mental insecurities are far worse and often can't be solved until the person stops playing. (Dokic is a classic example of someone whose career has been effected due to psycology)

I think there are probably more players who have retired because of mental problems rather than injury...even if we don't know about it.
__________________
Akgul AmanmuradovaEleni Daniilidou
Abduraimova-Kyrgios-Bychkova-Putintseva-Istomin-Diyas
Official Website: http://www.akgulamanmuradova.com
Facebook: Support Uzbekistan Tennis Team in 2014
Twitter: http://twitter.com/elissetennis <--- Live Tweeting from...hmmmm
- I went to Tashkent Open...yesss TASHKENT!!!! -
Davai-Akgul (3)Amanmuradova/Daniilidou (UZB/GRE) #MyDreamTeam
Elisse is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:04 AM   #10
country flag AnomyBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,605
AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Both can destroy a career, but if I was a player and I was given the choice, I'd definitely prefer to have mental problems. I think once you have a serious physical problem you're usually never going to be 100% again, but you can be 100% again after dealing with mental problems. So that's the big difference for me. Injuries are often permanent, but mental problems are only temporary.
__________________
CHECK OUT MY MEGA-THREADS!!!

THE TOP 75 HOTTEST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS OF THE LAST 10 YEARS

The biggest, most over-researched and most overly drawn-out hot female tennis player thread of all time!!!

THE TOP 50 WORST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS OF THE LAST 12 YEARS

Meet the players that make Brie Whitehead look like Steffi Graf!!!
AnomyBC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:07 AM   #11
country flag AnomyBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,605
AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakarovaFan View Post
Think carefully about what you said.....Maria no longer has a physical problem,its all mental. See her injury lead her to have mental problems but then injury went away and she is still left with the mental issues!!!
I don't think that's true at all. I think Maria's problems are still more physical than mental. She's had a loss of confidence for sure, but it comes from the fact that she's no longer able to play the way she used to.
__________________
CHECK OUT MY MEGA-THREADS!!!

THE TOP 75 HOTTEST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS OF THE LAST 10 YEARS

The biggest, most over-researched and most overly drawn-out hot female tennis player thread of all time!!!

THE TOP 50 WORST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS OF THE LAST 12 YEARS

Meet the players that make Brie Whitehead look like Steffi Graf!!!
AnomyBC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:09 AM   #12
MakarovaFan
Senior Member
 
MakarovaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,387
MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnomyBC View Post
Both can destroy a career, but if I was a player and I was given the choice, I'd definitely prefer to have mental problems. I think once you have a serious physical problem you're usually never going to be 100% again, but you can be 100% again after dealing with mental problems. So that's the big difference for me. Injuries are often permanent, but mental problems are only temporary.
I think it's 100% opposite. Injuries heal over time and with enough training and determination can be overcome....but mental problems in the head can never be healed. Put it this way tough injury/surgery can take 6-12 months to fully heal but a severe mental problem can be with you for years!!
__________________
~Elena Makarova~goddess of tennis
New Breed: Maria,Anastasia Myskina,Nicole,Ana,Tatiana Golovin,Jelena J,Iveta Benesova,Olga Poutchkova,Camille Pin,Maria Kirilenko,Alonya Bondarenko,Meilen Tu,Sania Mirza,Rezai,Ashley H,Tataina Poutchek,Sandra Kloesel,Klara Z,Mirjana Lucic,Dominka Cibulkova,Emauelle Gagliardi,Jelena Kostanic,Iroda,Martina Sucha,Raluca Olaru,Kveta,Marta D,Bethanie,Bychkova

Lilia Osterloh,Viktoriya Kutuzova,Yurika Sema,Anastasia Pivavrova(?),Stanislava Hrozenska,Marie-Eve,Zsofia,Angelika Roesch,Sunitha Rao,Anne Keothavang,Olivia Sanchez,Angela Haynes,Alex S,Jelena Dokic,Rosana De Los Rios,Kristina Brandi,Eva Fislova,Lindsay Lee

Elena Makarova,Anna K, Capriati,Lindsay,Henrieta Nagyova,Anca Barna,Petra Mandula,Jana Kandarr,
MakarovaFan is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #13
MakarovaFan
Senior Member
 
MakarovaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,387
MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future MakarovaFan has a brilliant future
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnomyBC View Post
I don't think that's true at all. I think Maria's problems are still more physical than mental. She's had a loss of confidence for sure, but it comes from the fact that she's no longer able to play the way she used to.
That's not true at all, just look at her play last summer,specifically Cincinatti....she was blitzing in form players left and right and up until the rain delay in the final,she was looking to be the Maria of old. That fact alone proves that its all in her head!
__________________
~Elena Makarova~goddess of tennis
New Breed: Maria,Anastasia Myskina,Nicole,Ana,Tatiana Golovin,Jelena J,Iveta Benesova,Olga Poutchkova,Camille Pin,Maria Kirilenko,Alonya Bondarenko,Meilen Tu,Sania Mirza,Rezai,Ashley H,Tataina Poutchek,Sandra Kloesel,Klara Z,Mirjana Lucic,Dominka Cibulkova,Emauelle Gagliardi,Jelena Kostanic,Iroda,Martina Sucha,Raluca Olaru,Kveta,Marta D,Bethanie,Bychkova

Lilia Osterloh,Viktoriya Kutuzova,Yurika Sema,Anastasia Pivavrova(?),Stanislava Hrozenska,Marie-Eve,Zsofia,Angelika Roesch,Sunitha Rao,Anne Keothavang,Olivia Sanchez,Angela Haynes,Alex S,Jelena Dokic,Rosana De Los Rios,Kristina Brandi,Eva Fislova,Lindsay Lee

Elena Makarova,Anna K, Capriati,Lindsay,Henrieta Nagyova,Anca Barna,Petra Mandula,Jana Kandarr,
MakarovaFan is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:13 AM   #14
country flag BuTtErFrEnA
Rena's Army
 
BuTtErFrEnA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: "The Terror of Veerror"
Posts: 33,575
BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute BuTtErFrEnA has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

depends on the injury and the player....

physical can lead to mental even after the physical has healed....

some small injuries are just a wait it out and get back to normal...some mental things like elena/petrova seemingly can't be overcome
__________________
Raúl hasta siempre capitán ♥♥♥


I shall destroy the temple, and rebuild it in 3 days
BuTtErFrEnA is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13th, 2011, 01:15 AM   #15
country flag AnomyBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,605
AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute AnomyBC has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's worse :Mental Problems OR Injury Problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakarovaFan View Post
Dinara obviously still has issues with her back as even she herself has said it but Maria.....the lack of aggresion,the tenativeness,pushing and guiding the ball,the doubt she never used to have,the nervous double faults......that's all mental(minus some of the doubles) trust me, especially when in practice she excels!
A lot of that comes from the fact that she's not as fast as she used to be. The double faults come from her having problems with decelerating her arm when she serves. And the doubt comes from not being able to play the way she used to play, and in particular not being able to rely on her serve as much. In other words, any mental issues she has are the result of the physical issues she's dealing with. There's nothing mentally wrong with her beyond what you would expect from any player dealing with physical injuries.
__________________
CHECK OUT MY MEGA-THREADS!!!

THE TOP 75 HOTTEST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS OF THE LAST 10 YEARS

The biggest, most over-researched and most overly drawn-out hot female tennis player thread of all time!!!

THE TOP 50 WORST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS OF THE LAST 12 YEARS

Meet the players that make Brie Whitehead look like Steffi Graf!!!
AnomyBC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios