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Old Dec 23rd, 2011, 09:58 PM   #271
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

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Originally Posted by OZTENNIS View Post
Agree with all of the above. While she is a big talent, to say she is a better version of Hingis () who was already a top 20 player at the age Ash is now, is very very rich. Hingis was winning junior Grand Slams at the age of 12 FFS.
Agree I sometime wonder about the 'esteemed coach' bit too (Im still seeing red over the Ukraine fed Cup fiasco )

To say she is better than Hingis is ludicrious. Hingis was the most talented player I have ever seen, she could hit any shot.... drop shots on the run.... Pity she became a bit of a head case and stopped using her strengths against the bigger hitters.





Unfortunately she became a bit of a head case
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Old Dec 23rd, 2011, 10:03 PM   #272
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

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Originally Posted by Dund View Post
I think it's fair to say Hingis would not have anywhere near the success today that she had over a decade ago. You simply can't play today without a modicum of power, no matter how smart a player you are. There are girls in juniors now that hit harder than some of the top players in the senior ranks back when Hingis was on top.

As far as Im concerned she is more talented than Hingis. She has more strings to her bow including more power. Can play just as many shots. It doesn't mean to say she will have similar success, because the game has advanced from where it was a decade back.
Really? If Wozniacki is No.1 why couldn't Hingis be up there winning slams and/or being ranked No.1?

When Hingis came back in 06/07 the tour was stronger than it is now and she still made it back to No.6 in the world...despite playing without the fearlessness of her youth and lacking some of the poise and strategy she had in the late 90s. They could have gotten her over the line in some big matches she lost in her comeback.

And in saying that - if Hingis was coming through the juniors today, I think her game would have more power...
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Old Dec 24th, 2011, 02:42 AM   #273
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

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Originally Posted by Dani12 View Post
The thing about Hingis though is that she took the ball earlier than anyone, and it created the effect that she was hitting the ball harder. Barty, while she may hit the ball harder, doesn't take the ball as early as Hingis. It takes a special kind of talent to hit the ball as early as Hingis, cleany and balanced as she did.

Saying that she is an updated version of Hingis may make sense, but in MY opinion, not as talented.
Don't agree. Barty has excellent hands and hand/eye and seems to be able to return half volley baseline shots with ease and return them with venom, which Hingis never really did, it was all about accuracy. I vaguely remember her talking about how she admired Andre Agassi and his ability to hit those same early returns but with just as much if not more power than the ball was hit at him with.

At her age she needs to mature physically and get stronger in order to do it more consistently obviously. Hingis was more complete by 15, but imo she also had more margin for error in her game, not to mention the number of power hitters around were far far fewer back then. But in terms of raw talent it's all there imo. There's a reason players aren't dominating the senior tour at young ages anymore. And it's not because the talent isn't as good. Quite the opposite.
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Really? If Wozniacki is No.1 why couldn't Hingis be up there winning slams and/or being ranked No.1?

When Hingis came back in 06/07 the tour was stronger than it is now and she still made it back to No.6 in the world...despite playing without the fearlessness of her youth and lacking some of the poise and strategy she had in the late 90s. They could have gotten her over the line in some big matches she lost in her comeback.

And in saying that - if Hingis was coming through the juniors today, I think her game would have more power...
Wozniacki hits harder than Hingis did imo. Though her ground strokes are slow compared to todays power hitters. Despite that shes not beating the best players in the world. Or else she would have won a grand slam. So her supposed "success" is simply being consistent in beating lower ranked players in minor tournaments through the year.

When I said she wouldn't have the same success, I meant it terms of dominating the sport and winning numerous grand slams. Hingis wasn't going to win any grand slams on her return. Her game is certainly good enough to beat on lower ranked opponents, and probably be a top 10 player in todays game, but like Wozniacki, if she couldn't break through for a grand slam then her career wouldn't be remembered all that fondly like it is now. I've nothing against Hingis, she was a fantastic player for her time. Just like Borg was for his time, Laver for his etc.
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Old Dec 24th, 2011, 09:34 AM   #274
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

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Originally Posted by louloubelle View Post
Agree I sometime wonder about the 'esteemed coach' bit too (Im still seeing red over the Ukraine fed Cup fiasco )

To say she is better than Hingis is ludicrious. Hingis was the most talented player I have ever seen, she could hit any shot.... drop shots on the run.... Pity she became a bit of a head case and stopped using her strengths against the bigger hitters.

Unfortunately she became a bit of a head case
Agreed. Hingis was a freak, in a tennis sense. She could play every shot in the book and wrote a fair few new pages herself

I think the first nail in the coffin was the '99 French Open final vs Graf and there followed a gradual decline.

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Originally Posted by Dund View Post
Don't agree. Barty has excellent hands and hand/eye and seems to be able to return half volley baseline shots with ease and return them with venom, which Hingis never really did, it was all about accuracy. I vaguely remember her talking about how she admired Andre Agassi and his ability to hit those same early returns but with just as much if not more power than the ball was hit at him with.

At her age she needs to mature physically and get stronger in order to do it more consistently obviously. Hingis was more complete by 15, but imo she also had more margin for error in her game, not to mention the number of power hitters around were far far fewer back then. But in terms of raw talent it's all there imo. There's a reason players aren't dominating the senior tour at young ages anymore. And it's not because the talent isn't as good. Quite the opposite.

Wozniacki hits harder than Hingis did imo. Though her ground strokes are slow compared to todays power hitters. Despite that shes not beating the best players in the world. Or else she would have won a grand slam. So her supposed "success" is simply being consistent in beating lower ranked players in minor tournaments through the year.

When I said she wouldn't have the same success, I meant it terms of dominating the sport and winning numerous grand slams. Hingis wasn't going to win any grand slams on her return. Her game is certainly good enough to beat on lower ranked opponents, and probably be a top 10 player in todays game, but like Wozniacki, if she couldn't break through for a grand slam then her career wouldn't be remembered all that fondly like it is now. I've nothing against Hingis, she was a fantastic player for her time. Just like Borg was for his time, Laver for his etc.
Seriously? You're comparing Barty's half volley baseline shots (hit against juniors and a smattering of players inside the top 200) with Hingis' attempts when she was up against players such as the Williamses and Davenport? Little wonder Barty's come off looking better!!

There are several reasons why young players aren't dominating the tour anymore;
1. Age eligibility rules restrict youngsters (such as Barty) from full schedules and therefore they will not be ranked as high.
2. There are not as many talented teens now or in recent times as there were then (Hingis, Williamses, Kournikova, Lucic, Clijsters, Henin, Dokic late 90s/early 00s). All of these players were either top 10 or had WTA titles to their names as teenagers. And all of them scored their fair share of upset victories.
3. There is more depth on the tour now (but they are not necessarily better at the top - it's no coincidence that the majority of posters on TF constantly lament the lack of true champions at the top, as well as the consistency of top tenners).

I think we can agree that Wozniacki hits harder than Hingis - and she is a better athlete - but in terms of tennis instinct and strategy, Hingis runs rings around her. Hingis ushered in a new kind of tennis player, one that appeared a counterpuncher but could hurt you with her deft touch, accuracy and all court play. There are only a few players who will be able to play in this way (another is Henin, Barty could follow in these illustrious footsteps but is a long way away)

Like I said earlier, if Hingis was a junior coming through today I'm sure she would have more power in her game - Melanie Molitor would have made sure of that!

I could understand if you said you think Barty will be a BETTER/more complete player in the long run (it is a big ask), but to say she is more talented?? No way IMO. That's like saying Wozniacki is more talented than Seles or Graf simply because she is playing today. The evolution of tennis and its top players is inevitable but talent transcends eras.


Hingis v Venus 1999 US Open. First set - Hingis 15 winners, 2 unforced errors...phenomenal!! Check out some of her all court play (1:07-1:13) and her half volley pick up (1:14-1:24).

At the time, John McEnroe said Hingis' first set was the best tennis he had ever seen a woman play. I think it is one of if not the best set of tennis Hingis ever played.

I miss this era!!
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Old Dec 24th, 2011, 12:38 PM   #275
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

At best I see her becoming a Radwanska type of player, cant compare her to Hingis...based on what facts.....
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Old Dec 25th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #276
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

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Originally Posted by OZTENNIS View Post
Agreed. Hingis was a freak, in a tennis sense. She could play every shot in the book and wrote a fair few new pages herself

I think the first nail in the coffin was the '99 French Open final vs Graf and there followed a gradual decline.



Seriously? You're comparing Barty's half volley baseline shots (hit against juniors and a smattering of players inside the top 200) with Hingis' attempts when she was up against players such as the Williamses and Davenport? Little wonder Barty's come off looking better!!

There are several reasons why young players aren't dominating the tour anymore;
1. Age eligibility rules restrict youngsters (such as Barty) from full schedules and therefore they will not be ranked as high.
2. There are not as many talented teens now or in recent times as there were then (Hingis, Williamses, Kournikova, Lucic, Clijsters, Henin, Dokic late 90s/early 00s). All of these players were either top 10 or had WTA titles to their names as teenagers. And all of them scored their fair share of upset victories.
3. There is more depth on the tour now (but they are not necessarily better at the top - it's no coincidence that the majority of posters on TF constantly lament the lack of true champions at the top, as well as the consistency of top tenners).

I think we can agree that Wozniacki hits harder than Hingis - and she is a better athlete - but in terms of tennis instinct and strategy, Hingis runs rings around her. Hingis ushered in a new kind of tennis player, one that appeared a counterpuncher but could hurt you with her deft touch, accuracy and all court play. There are only a few players who will be able to play in this way (another is Henin, Barty could follow in these illustrious footsteps but is a long way away)

Like I said earlier, if Hingis was a junior coming through today I'm sure she would have more power in her game - Melanie Molitor would have made sure of that!

I could understand if you said you think Barty will be a BETTER/more complete player in the long run (it is a big ask), but to say she is more talented?? No way IMO. That's like saying Wozniacki is more talented than Seles or Graf simply because she is playing today. The evolution of tennis and its top players is inevitable but talent transcends eras.


Hingis v Venus 1999 US Open. First set - Hingis 15 winners, 2 unforced errors...phenomenal!! Check out some of her all court play (1:07-1:13) and her half volley pick up (1:14-1:24).

At the time, John McEnroe said Hingis' first set was the best tennis he had ever seen a woman play. I think it is one of if not the best set of tennis Hingis ever played.

I miss this era!!
I said raw talent. As yet unpolished. Barty has shown the ability to play ALL the shots you mentioned Hingis capable of. Stop getting confused as though I said she is as polished as Hingis was in her prime. That would be ridiculous. Barty is doing it in juniors because she IS a junior. She hasn't had the opportunity to play and hence develop experience against senior players. You can only play the opponent in front of you.

I also said Hingis was more polished at 15. But that doesn't mean anything. People develop at different rates. I see Barty being more like a Henin/Federer hybrid in any case as opposed to Hingis. Barty may never be as successful as Hingis was, but that won't be due to lack of talent. Plenty of players probably more talented than Hingis have failed to have the same success due to a myriad of other factors. When I say I think she has as much or more raw talent than Hingis, it's because I can see all the pieces there to be put together. Doesn't mean they will be. She can play all the shots Hingis could but hits harder, and you could say Hingis would hit harder today than back then but on what evidence? That is hypothetical.

I also think point number 3 you mentioned is a larger reason for less juniors doing as well today, in both mens and womens tennis. Players are physically more imposing, fitter, faster. Younger bodies simply can't withstand the physical impact playing on the senior tour has on their young bodies, which they probably could back in the 90's, or at least to a far greater extent, as the sport was less professional than it is today. That feeds into point number 1 as we don't want the younger players to burnout early in their careers. This will lead to young players developing more slowly, but hopefully having longer careers and not retiring in their early 20's like a number of top players of the past.
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Old Dec 25th, 2011, 01:19 PM   #277
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

keep going

Doesn't anyone think that she has a similar forehand with Justine,and part of the way she serves(because they are close in height?),and especially the way they walk on the court when not playing?
Her forehand was partly similar with Samantha, as well the backhand when they lift racket.

PS:I've watched only the three matches of Wild Card Play-off(two whole matches) including the whole match against Casey,and also the highlights of Wimbeldon final.
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Old Dec 25th, 2011, 01:37 PM   #278
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

And I wanna know her real height now.It is reported she is 1.65m on the ITF website,but the official site doesn't fresh frequently.I checked that Casey is 1.65m and she looks a little taller than Casey in the video.
Wish she could be 3-5 cm taller than Justine,since in the video ,her serves were strong,but as a lot of players at her height including Justine Henin and Rezai, their 1st serve in % are around 50%-60%(I didn't calculate the statistics, just a feeling).It will be very helpful in serve if she get a height over 170cm.
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Old Dec 25th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #279
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

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Originally Posted by Bagel-Monica View Post
keep going

Doesn't anyone think that she has a similar forehand with Justine,and part of the way she serves(because they are close in height?),and especially the way they walk on the court when not playing?
Her forehand was partly similar with Samantha, as well the backhand when they lift racket.

PS:I've watched only the three matches of Wild Card Play-off(two whole matches) including the whole match against Casey,and also the highlights of Wimbeldon final.
Nothing like Henin. Henin turns her body away from the ball when she hits her forehand and has a more normal follow through with a heavier western grip. Barty faces in and uses much more wrist flick action to generate up and over topspin, very similar to Roger Federer. Stosur on the other hand hits a flat ball, starts off in a similar motion to Barty's, but gets nowhere near as much topspin because she doesn't have the same wrist flick follow through. Less margin for error on her forehand than Barty will have.
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Old Dec 25th, 2011, 01:48 PM   #280
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

You remind me of Roger
I agree that her forehand is more similar with Roger,maybe a few points in the highlights just confused me
However,her forehand is more similar with Justine than any female player in my mind
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Nothing like Henin. Henin turns her body away from the ball when she hits her forehand and has a more normal follow through with a heavier western grip. Barty faces in and uses much more wrist flick action to generate up and over topspin, very similar to Roger Federer. Stosur on the other hand hits a flat ball, starts off in a similar motion to Barty's, but gets nowhere near as much topspin because she doesn't have the same wrist flick follow through. Less margin for error on her forehand than Barty will have.
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Old Dec 25th, 2011, 02:00 PM   #281
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

And hopefully a stronger heart
She led 4-1 40-30 in WC final but lost 3 games consecutively
She also led 5-1 and get a match point against Bengson,and lost 3 games,nearly 4 games in a row when she saved some break points and get the win at the second match point.
Well, it could be coincidence as well
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Old Dec 29th, 2011, 04:24 PM   #282
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

Vania King USA [1] vs Ashleigh Barty AUS [WC]
Anastasia Rodionova AUS vs Reka-Luca Jani HUN
Stefanie Voegele SUI vs Sally Peers AUS [WC]
Akgul Amanmuradova UZB vs Patricia Mayr-Achleitner AUT [8]

She is playing against the first seed in Brisbane. But nothing to lose. Good luck
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Old Dec 29th, 2011, 10:59 PM   #283
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

Great draw
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Old Dec 30th, 2011, 12:39 AM   #284
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

At least she isn't playing a tall and powerful girl that will be able to hit her off the court, and at the same time...nothing to lose. Good luck!
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Old Dec 30th, 2011, 07:54 AM   #285
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Re: Ashleigh Barty

The match was a lot closer than the score indicated.
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