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Old Aug 19th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #1
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Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

I get a little bit tired of people trotting out Evert's 13-match losing streak to Martina over the 1983-84 period, when all was not well in Chris' personal life, she was playing in 1983 with wood against Martina's graphite, Navratilova had elevated herself to new heights with the help of breakthroughs in our knowledge of science and nutrition, and that damned Nancy Lieberman remodelling her game with one aim in mind - beating Chrissie.

But people forget that Martina had her own losing streaks to Chris:

Eight-match streak (1975-76) - in eight meetings, Martina won only two sets and was forced to scoff three bagel sets for good measure.

Six-match streak (1977-78) - all on fast courts, none on clay (Martina had worked that one out)

Five-match streak (1973-74) - first five matches they played, and only broken when Martina won a sudden-death tiebreaker with the score at 4-4 in the Virginia Slims of Washington.

So there you have an 8 and a 6 match-streak, which is surely no different (and maybe even better) than a single 13-match streak.

Also note that in the 1970s Martina was losing earlier (she only made three grand-slam singles finals that decade. all on grass), so she was not meeting Chris so much when the Ice Maiden was at the top of her game. For example, in 1976 they only met three times (admittedly, Martina was having her own issues and fair share of awful perms in this period).

Some other statistics on fast surfaces, including grass:

Chrissie leads Martina in their head-to-heads in Australia. Martina beat her at the AO in 1981 and 1985; Chris beat her at the AO in 1982 and 1988 and in Sydney on grass in 1981 (also - what about all the exhibitions they played? I know Chris beat her a couple of times in early 1988 before the AO).

Outside Wimbledon, their grass H2H is five all! Not so shoddy when you consider Martina is regarded as the unmatched queen of this surface for all time.
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Old Aug 19th, 2010, 09:45 PM   #2
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumarokov-Elston View Post
I get a little bit tired of people trotting out Evert's 13-match losing streak to Martina over the 1983-84 period, when all was not well in Chris' personal life, she was playing in 1983 with wood against Martina's graphite, Navratilova had elevated herself to new heights with the help of breakthroughs in our knowledge of science and nutrition, and that damned Nancy Lieberman remodelling her game with one aim in mind - beating Chrissie.

But people forget that Martina had her own losing streaks to Chris:

Eight-match streak (1975-76) - in eight meetings, Martina won only two sets and was forced to scoff three bagel sets for good measure.

Six-match streak (1977-78) - all on fast courts, none on clay (Martina had worked that one out)

Five-match streak (1973-74) - first five matches they played, and only broken when Martina won a sudden-death tiebreaker with the score at 4-4 in the Virginia Slims of Washington.

So there you have an 8 and a 6 match-streak, which is surely no different (and maybe even better) than a single 13-match streak.

Also note that in the 1970s Martina was losing earlier (she only made three grand-slam singles finals that decade. all on grass), so she was not meeting Chris so much when the Ice Maiden was at the top of her game. For example, in 1976 they only met three times (admittedly, Martina was having her own issues and fair share of awful perms in this period).

Some other statistics on fast surfaces, including grass:

Chrissie leads Martina in their head-to-heads in Australia. Martina beat her at the AO in 1981 and 1985; Chris beat her at the AO in 1982 and 1988 and in Sydney on grass in 1981 (also - what about all the exhibitions they played? I know Chris beat her a couple of times in early 1988 before the AO).

Outside Wimbledon, their grass H2H is five all! Not so shoddy when you consider Martina is regarded as the unmatched queen of this surface for all time.
The head to head was greatly contested match in match out. Of course there were some easy matches and straight wins for each player. This is the greatest tennis rivary ever, men and women.

Chris certainly enjoyed periods of great dominance, but i no ways 8+6+4 streaks are better than 13 in a row. Chris herself has a 13 streak on her side, which is the streak of grand slam wins. That is an amazing and probably unbreakable stat..

But going back to their head to head you can´t exclude the biggest grass court event that there is to point out that Evert was 5-5 on grass. Lets take a look at their GS meetings.

GS Meetings
Australian Open 2-2 (Martina 2-1 on grass, Chris 1-0 Hard)
Roland Garros 3-2 Evert
Wimbledon 7-2 Martina
Usopen 3-1 Martina (Martina 3-0 on hard, Chris 1-0 on clay)

VS CHAMPIONSHIPS 3-1 Martina (Evert win was in 1975)

Not to dimish Evert, she was a fierce competitior, great warrior, but Martina is the clear leader of their rivary. On Evert´s grand slam at her best surface she is only ahead 3-2, while Martina tops Wimbledon with a clear 7-2. Australian Open are 2-2 and the rest is Martina 3-1.

That makes 15-8 in grand slam events and 18-9 with their YEC meetings.
13 matches straght won and ultimately a 43- 37 all time lead in their rivary.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #3
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencercarlos View Post
On Evert´s grand slam at her best surface she is only ahead 3-2, while Martina tops Wimbledon with a clear 7-2.
This is where statistics get interesting though.... it's Chris who has the ability to make it to 9 head to head clashes at Martina's best event, and Martina made barely half of that at Chrissie's best.

I am not only interested in the match up between them, which slightly favored Navratilova because her game was structured to do so, but how they matched up against the rest of the field, and Chris tended to beat the hell out of the rest of the field more often. Martina's busy losing to Mandlikova & Shriver & Sukova, while Chris is busy dismantling them.

So much of their head to head is Chrissie's ability to get to the final round when Martina is on a zenith, and Martina's inability to do the same when Chris was winning other semis & finals.

The other thing the head to head conceals is that half of Navratilova's slam count is at one tournament. I agree with Chris that when martina is at her best, she has the advantage over Chris, but point being Chris is at her best far more often than Martina. And that's not for nothing.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 12:52 AM   #4
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumarokov-Elston View Post
But people forget that Martina had her own losing streaks to Chris:

Eight-match streak (1975-76) - in eight meetings, Martina won only two sets and was forced to scoff three bagel sets for good measure.

Six-match streak (1977-78) - all on fast courts, none on clay (Martina had worked that one out)
These are the ones I point to, in that Martina won 13 in a row (some of which includes the TEN matches played with Martina using graphite and Chris using wood), but likewise, Chris won 13 of 15 from mid 1975 til the end of 1977.... also a similar 2 year period of domination.

13 in a row (which of course is also 13 of 15, bookended by Evert victories) for Navratilova
versus
13 out of 15 for Evert

This is splitting hairs. The significant difference is that more people had their TVs turned on to watch those matches in 1984.

Last edited by daze11 : Aug 20th, 2010 at 01:28 AM.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 01:07 AM   #5
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

I truly agree that Chris is hurt in the h2h because she always made the semis and finals of events while Martina, in her first 5-6 years frequently lost early in events that Chris won. It would be a great stat to see how many tournaments each won in which the other played. I think it would be even or possibly in Evert's favor.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 01:24 AM   #6
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by preacherfan View Post
I truly agree that Chris is hurt in the h2h because she always made the semis and finals of events while Martina, in her first 5-6 years frequently lost early in events that Chris won. It would be a great stat to see how many tournaments each won in which the other played. I think it would be even or possibly in Evert's favor.
Well, this is more glaringly the case in the majors... see, if Martina leads their slam head to head:
That makes 15-8 in grand slam events
Yet they both have 18 slams...... Chrissie's handling the rest of the field more completely.

In the smaller events, it may not be as relevant a factor as much as that Martina didn't show up at chrissie's core events on clay (When Chris won 6-0 6-0 at Amelia in 1981, they hadnt played on clay since 1975!!!!!) whereas chris always went to those indoor carpet events, which were responsible for 4x her usual loss count. Chris just played the full calendar, come what may.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 04:29 AM   #7
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
These are the ones I point to, in that Martina won 13 in a row (some of which includes the TEN matches played with Martina using graphite and Chris using wood), but likewise, Chris won 13 of 15 from mid 1975 til the end of 1977.... also a similar 2 year period of domination.

13 in a row (which of course is also 13 of 15, bookended by Evert victories) for Navratilova
versus
13 out of 15 for Evert

This is splitting hairs. The significant difference is that more people had their TVs turned on to watch those matches in 1984.
Splitting streaks is what you are doing here and in doing so you forget that Martina won 18 out of 20 matches from Evert between 1982 and 1986. So playing that game then again Martina has a HUGE lead/breaking factor in their head to head compared to the early match ups.

13 in row and 18 out of 20 matches, that is something really big
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 04:46 AM   #8
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
Well, this is more glaringly the case in the majors... see, if Martina leads their slam head to head:
That makes 15-8 in grand slam events
Yet they both have 18 slams...... Chrissie's handling the rest of the field more completely.
I fail to see that, they won 18 slams each, i think they both handled the field fairly simiar. Of course Chris dominated early on her carreer while Martina got to dominate late on. Of course Martina at her peak won 6 straight slams for instance, i don´t think Evert did that.

I would love to do the stats according to how many GS finals they reached during their carreers as well, but i am lazy to do that atm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
In the smaller events, it may not be as relevant a factor as much as that Martina didn't show up at chrissie's core events on clay (When Chris won 6-0 6-0 at Amelia in 1981, they hadnt played on clay since 1975!!!!!) whereas chris always went to those indoor carpet events, which were responsible for 4x her usual loss count. Chris just played the full calendar, come what may.
They played just about the same matches on each surface in comparisson.
They met on Martina´s beloved grass 13 times, to Evert´s clay 13. Carpet they met 25 times and 27 on hardcourts. They have a well rounded head to head, maybe Grass and Carpet (40 matches) suited Martina without a doubt, but clay and hardcourts the advantage was on Chris (40 matches).

Matches by surface
13 Clay
27 hard
15 grass
25 carpet
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 04:50 AM   #9
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I am not only interested in the match up between them, which slightly favored Navratilova because her game was structured to do so,
Maybe uninsterested about the head to head because Chris who initially spanked Martina at first got owned the rest of the way until finally trailing in that head to head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
The other thing the head to head conceals is that half of Navratilova's slam count is at one tournament.
Evert 10 of her 18 slams come off clay.
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Sabatini vs Martinez ?
Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 9
Straight Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 6
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Straight seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 4
Tier II and above titles
Sabatini 24 Martinez 17
Record at the Masters
Sabatini has 2 titles 2 Runner up and 3 SF
Martinez has 0 titles, 0 RU, and 0 Sf
Record against the best players
Sabatini 40% Martinez 21%
Head to Head
Sabatini leads 9-6 over Martinez
FWTT Hard 111(111 + ny)Carpet 104(104 + ny)Clay 107(107 + 4) Grass 100(100 ny)
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #10
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

I have always marvelled at Evert's grass court record. Her great timing, balance, and quickness made it possible for her to adjust her strokes on that type of surface. And I think her flat strokes served her extremely well on grass.

She beat all of the greats that were considered "grass court players" on that surface. In my mind she doesn't get enough credit for this.

I also feel that Martina doesn't get enough credit for her French Open record. She was a natural clay courter and understood the surface very well. And I'm not sure anyone ever moved better than she did on red clay. She's literally just a handfull of points away from 5 French Open titles.

They each had their periods of dominance, and they each were inspired by one another. They also each had their own personal nemeses to deal with that the other didn't necessarily struggle with which isn't surprising since they are two totally different players. But time and again they pulled through besting the better of the rest, and often times on their respective weakest surface.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #11
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by HanaFanGA View Post
I have always marvelled at Evert's grass court record. Her great timing, balance, and quickness made it possible for her to adjust her strokes on that type of surface. And I think her flat strokes served her extremely well on grass.

She beat all of the greats that were considered "grass court players" on that surface. In my mind she doesn't get enough credit for this.
Until 1983, when Navratilova pulled away from Evert (and indeed the rest of the world), their grass-court record was pretty even:

Evert (1976 W)
Navratilova (1978 E)
Navratilova (1978 W)
Evert (1979 E)
Navratilova (1979 W)
Evert (1980 W)
Evert (1981 NSW)
Navratilova (1981 AO)
Navratilova (1982 W)
Evert (1982 AO)

So in the first ten years of their rivalry, they met on grass ten times and their H2H was 5-5. Not so shoddy at all for someone who has "only three Wimbledons". In fact, if Evert had only won that 1979 Wimbledon final, she would have had a four-match grass-court winning streak against Navratilova!

As we have seen, Martina did not play Chris only clay at all between 1975 and 1981. So over the first ten years of their rivalry, they met only seven times, with Evert winning all seven for the loss of only one set (FO 1975). The victories include 6-0, 6-1 at the Italian Open 1975 and 6-0, 6-0 at Amelia Island in 1981.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 03:20 PM   #12
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
This is where statistics get interesting though.... it's Chris who has the ability to make it to 9 head to head clashes at Martina's best event, and Martina made barely half of that at Chrissie's best.

I am not only interested in the match up between them, which slightly favored Navratilova because her game was structured to do so, but how they matched up against the rest of the field, and Chris tended to beat the hell out of the rest of the field more often. Martina's busy losing to Mandlikova & Shriver & Sukova, while Chris is busy dismantling them.

So much of their head to head is Chrissie's ability to get to the final round when Martina is on a zenith, and Martina's inability to do the same when Chris was winning other semis & finals.

The other thing the head to head conceals is that half of Navratilova's slam count is at one tournament. I agree with Chris that when martina is at her best, she has the advantage over Chris, but point being Chris is at her best far more often than Martina. And that's not for nothing.
As some said Martina has had many obstacles to overcome so she was a late bloomer .Chris was at her best more often than her due to her different games's style .Serve and volley 's game is a lot more difficult than baseline's game ,if you play tennis you can't deny it .In a bad day a baseliner may win a serve and volleyer can't.I like Chris but her huge fans always pointed her "more often best days "
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 03:24 PM   #13
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumarokov-Elston View Post
Until 1983, when Navratilova pulled away from Evert (and indeed the rest of the world), their grass-court record was pretty even:

Evert (1976 W)
Navratilova (1978 E)
Navratilova (1978 W)
Evert (1979 E)
Navratilova (1979 W)
Evert (1980 W)
Evert (1981 NSW)
Navratilova (1981 AO)
Navratilova (1982 W)
Evert (1982 AO)

So in the first ten years of their rivalry, they met on grass ten times and their H2H was 5-5. Not so shoddy at all for someone who has "only three Wimbledons". In fact, if Evert had only won that 1979 Wimbledon final, she would have had a four-match grass-court winning streak against Navratilova!

As we have seen, Martina did not play Chris only clay at all between 1975 and 1981. So over the first ten years of their rivalry, they met only seven times, with Evert winning all seven for the loss of only one set (FO 1975). The victories include 6-0, 6-1 at the Italian Open 1975 and 6-0, 6-0 at Amelia Island in 1981.
Even before Martina hitting her peak years, you can see that Navratilova won 5 matches on grass, 4 being in grand slam events, while Chris took 3. After this Martina won 4 more grass court matches at Wimbledon 1 more at the Australian Open.

That being said, its notable that Evert despite only leading 3-2 in matches at Roland Garros vs Martina, she definetly dominated on her best surface overall, much more than Martina did over Chris on grass.

The thing is that Martina has a much better record at Wimbledon vs Chris (undefeated in finals for instance) in comparisson to Chrissy at Roland Garros vs Martina.
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Sabatini vs Martinez ?
Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 9
Straight Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 6
Seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 5
Straight seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 4
Tier II and above titles
Sabatini 24 Martinez 17
Record at the Masters
Sabatini has 2 titles 2 Runner up and 3 SF
Martinez has 0 titles, 0 RU, and 0 Sf
Record against the best players
Sabatini 40% Martinez 21%
Head to Head
Sabatini leads 9-6 over Martinez
FWTT Hard 111(111 + ny)Carpet 104(104 + ny)Clay 107(107 + 4) Grass 100(100 ny)
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 03:24 PM   #14
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

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Originally Posted by calou View Post
As some said Martina has had many obstacles to overcome so she was a late bloomer .Chris was at her best more often than her due to her different games's style .Serve and volley 's game is a lot more difficult than baseline's game ,if you play tennis you can't deny it .In a bad day a baseliner may win a serve and volleyer can't.I like Chris but her huge fans always pointed her "more often best days "
What baseliner today has anywhere near the consistency of Evert? They don't do ANYTHING but sit on the baseline? They're the least consistent group of players ever. And the fact that Federer and Nadal have been at the top for so long shows it isn't the time period: it's the women.
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Old Aug 20th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #15
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Re: Chris's WINNING streaks against Martina

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Originally Posted by calou View Post
I like Chris but her huge fans always pointed her "more often best days "
You mean the entire 1970s?
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