Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce - TennisForum.com
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 04:18 PM   #1
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Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Since there was a thread comparing Sabatini to Novotna I was wondering how some of you would rank the following players from best to worst:

Jennifer Capriati- yes a 3 slam winner but the weakest 3 slam winner in history by a long ways with only 14 tour titles and losing head to heads vs almost every top player she ever faced. Deserves to be compared to the better 1 or 2 slam winners, not her fellow 3 slammers.

Amelie Mauresmo- finally got 2 slam titles in a year the Williams sisters and Davenport were not much of a factor but she did outduel people like Henin, Clijsters, and Sharapova to win them.

Mary Pierce- 2 slams but a very up and down career, seemingly not always that strong a contender.

Jana Novotna- discussed at length in the previous thread.

Sabatini- ditto.

Clijsters- considered an underachiever by many despite 2 slams.

Kuznetsova- IMO the weakest 2 slam winner ever. A talented mental midget who lucked out with cakewalk draws and circumstances to her 2 slams, despite choking away some possible other ones.

Martinez- great clay courter, less impressive on other surfaces, and couldnt beat Graf or Seles even on her beloved clay.





So how would you rank this group. For me it would be:

1. Clijsters- the best of the lot IMO
2. Jennifer Capriati- 3 slams is 3 slams
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Amelie Mauresmo- strange career in a sense, difficult to rank
5. Jana Novotna
6. Mary Pierce- I am actually surprised a bit she won 2 slams
7. Conchita Martinez
8. Svetlana Kuznetsova- meh
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:19 PM   #2
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

I think I would rank them:

1. Capriati
2. Clijsters
3. Mauresmo
4. Pierce
5. Kuznetsova
6. Novotna
7. Sabatini
8. Martinez


Maybe I'll post the resons for that later
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:21 PM   #3
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

It is obvious you dont share my views to how lucky Capriati and Kuznetsova both got to win as many slams as I did.

Last edited by justineheninfan : Aug 3rd, 2010 at 05:40 PM.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:38 PM   #4
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Quote:
Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
It is obvious you dont share my views to how lucky Capriati and Kuznetsova both got to win as many slams as they did.

Kuznetsova got a bit lucky in her Slam wins, Capriati not.

Capriati won the most Slams (3), plus she (like some others from this list) reached #1 and won the Olympic Gold. That puts her above all the others (for me).

Kuznetsova won 2 Slams, plus she reached several other Slam finals and #2, won Miami...because of that I can't put her below Sabatini, Pierce or Novotna who all won less Slams than her and all never reached #1, either.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:45 PM   #5
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Sorry I meant to say as I did, rather than as they did, stating it as my own personal opinion rather than fact. I edited my previous post.

I do think both got somewhat lucky though and I will explain why:

Capriati- during the period she won 3 slams she won only 1 other tournament. She had losing head to heads vs Venus, Davenport, past her prime Seles, and Henin during this 13 month stretch. It just seems amazing someone could win 3 slams out of 5 while being so completely undominant in general. She was also fortunate that at the 2002 French Seles, Pierce, and Davenport all had to withdraw and nearly all the other favorites- Venus, Mauresmo, Dokic, crashed out early. However her 2002 Australian Open title I found insanely lucky in so many ways I wont even get started. Anyway those are just my opinions.

Kuznetsova- Davenport was clearly on her way to beating her and winning the U.S Open this year without her injury in the semis. The French last year not really lucky but a terrible clay court field around that time. She choked away some probable wins to Serena, Myskina, and even Henin at the French in slams they won so could have legitimately added a few more impressive ones herself. Basically I think she was lucky to win 2 slams and reach 4 slam finals for the simple reason you look over that 6 year period she had so few wins over top players in slams for someone who achieved those results.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:46 PM   #6
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Quote:
Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
Since there was a thread comparing Sabatini to Novotna I was wondering how some of you would rank the following players from best to worst:

Jennifer Capriati- yes a 3 slam winner but the weakest 3 slam winner in history by a long ways with only 14 tour titles and losing head to heads vs almost every top player she ever faced. Deserves to be compared to the better 1 or 2 slam winners, not her fellow 3 slammers.

Amelie Mauresmo- finally got 2 slam titles in a year the Williams sisters and Davenport were not much of a factor but she did outduel people like Henin, Clijsters, and Sharapova to win them.

Mary Pierce- 2 slams but a very up and down career, seemingly not always that strong a contender.

Jana Novotna- discussed at length in the previous thread.

Sabatini- ditto.

Clijsters- considered an underachiever by many despite 2 slams.

Kuznetsova- IMO the weakest 2 slam winner ever. A talented mental midget who lucked out with cakewalk draws and circumstances to her 2 slams, despite choking away some possible other ones.

Martinez- great clay courter, less impressive on other surfaces, and couldnt beat Graf or Seles even on her beloved clay.





So how would you rank this group. For me it would be:

1. Clijsters- the best of the lot IMO
2. Jennifer Capriati- 3 slams is 3 slams
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Amelie Mauresmo- strange career in a sense, difficult to rank
5. Jana Novotna
6. Mary Pierce- I am actually surprised a bit she won 2 slams
7. Conchita Martinez
8. Svetlana Kuznetsova- meh
More or less agree with your rankings, but here's how I see it:

1. Kim Clijsters- Give Kim all the credit for winning another slam after her retirement.

2. Jennifer Capriati- Jen had an uneven career, but 3 Slams tips the scales in her favor.

3. Amelie Mauresmo- Underachieved to a certain extent, but still racked up some big wins along the way.

4. Jana Novotna- Jana had the game to accomplish more, but her 100 total titles carries weight with me. Without a doubt, Jana was the best of the one slam winners.

5. Conchita Martinez- Conchita scored 33 singles titles and a huge Wimledon victory. Sometimes overshadowed, Conchita produced a solid career.

6. Sabatini- The greatest UNDERACHIEVER AND CHOKER IN WTA HISTORY. Sabatini should have accomplished much more, but didn't. In my opinion, Sabatini is by far the weakest of the one slam winners.

7. Mary Pierce- Mary was a tough one for me on this list. Had she captured a third slam, I would have to rank her near Jennifer. As it stands, her career was lacking.

8. Svetlana Kuznetsova- Sveta is by far the weakest of the 2 slam winners.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:48 PM   #7
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Sabatini by far the weakest of the 1 slam winners? Even if you feel she is inferior to Novotna and Martinez, surely you wouldnt even try to suggest she is inferior to Majoli or Myskina would you? Or do you just mean amongst my list.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 05:54 PM   #8
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

The thing that I find worst about Conchita's career and record is her futile history vs Graf and Seles. And that every slam winning player I can think of has a winning head to head with her, even if some are competitive. And once Hingis reached her prime Conchita was pretty futile against her too, posting only one win on clay. Sabatini atleast gave some decent fight to both Graf and Seles. Novotna actually has a pretty good record vs Seles, yeah mostly post stabbing Seles but post stabbing Seles was still ripping Sanchez Vicario and of course Martinez to bits so you have to credit Jana still.

Even on her beloved clay Martinez could make almost no impact on Graf and Seles, and usually lost to Pierce and Sanchez, while playing Sabatini about equal overall. So for a clear clay court specialist her success on clay vs the top players is just not enough.

She did have one of the best records of the Graf generation vs an old Martina. That is about the best thing about her resume. Of course nearly all matches on clay has to be noted though.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 06:21 PM   #9
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Obviously over her whole career Mary Pierce isn't going to be near the top of the list.

BUT if all the players were at their best then I would pick her to blow any of them off court. The tragedy is that Mary probably only played at her best half-a-dozen times throughout her career!
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 07:56 PM   #10
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
Obviously over her whole career Mary Pierce isn't going to be near the top of the list.

BUT if all the players were at their best then I would pick her to blow any of them off court. The tragedy is that Mary probably only played at her best half-a-dozen times throughout her career!
hehe.. more than half a dozen times to be fair..
But yea, at her best Mary would smoke em all.. but thats not how overall greatness is counted. So my list would be

1. Jcap
2. Kim
3. Mary
4. Amelie
5. Gaby
6. Jana
7. Conchita
8. Kuz
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 08:54 PM   #11
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Quote:
Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
Sabatini by far the weakest of the 1 slam winners? Even if you feel she is inferior to Novotna and Martinez, surely you wouldnt even try to suggest she is inferior to Majoli or Myskina would you? Or do you just mean amongst my list.
Mike and Matt are sabatini haters. You see, Gaby is the weakest grand slam winner eventhough she beat Graf in the US Open final in straight sets and she almost beat Graf again in the 1991 Wimbledon final.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2010, 11:44 PM   #12
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Quote:
Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
I do think both got somewhat lucky though and I will explain why:

Capriati- during the period she won 3 slams she won only 1 other tournament. She had losing head to heads vs Venus, Davenport, past her prime Seles, and Henin during this 13 month stretch. It just seems amazing someone could win 3 slams out of 5 while being so completely undominant in general. She was also fortunate that at the 2002 French Seles, Pierce, and Davenport all had to withdraw and nearly all the other favorites- Venus, Mauresmo, Dokic, crashed out early. However her 2002 Australian Open title I found insanely lucky in so many ways I wont even get started. Anyway those are just my opinions.

I feel non-dominance has nothing to do with her supposed "luck" at her Slam wins, though. If anything, I feel Jen was often UNLUCKY at some of the Slams she didn't win...for example at the USO 1991 against Seles or USO 2004 against Dementieva.
And at the Slams she won, Jen played AMAZING tennis IMO...nothing lucky about it (except for maybe the OZ final 2002 where Hingis got exhausted in the heat LOL...). She beat players like Seles, Serena, Davenport, Clijsters and Hingis on the way to get her Slam wins...especially the way how she won her first Slam was highly impressive: beating Seles, Davenport and Hingis on hardcourt in a row...WOW!
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Old Aug 4th, 2010, 04:38 AM   #13
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

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Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
I feel non-dominance has nothing to do with her supposed "luck" at her Slam wins, though. If anything, I feel Jen was often UNLUCKY at some of the Slams she didn't win...for example at the USO 1991 against Seles or USO 2004 against Dementieva.
And at the Slams she won, Jen played AMAZING tennis IMO...nothing lucky about it (except for maybe the OZ final 2002 where Hingis got exhausted in the heat LOL...). She beat players like Seles, Serena, Davenport, Clijsters and Hingis on the way to get her Slam wins...especially the way how she won her first Slam was highly impressive: beating Seles, Davenport and Hingis on hardcourt in a row...WOW!
You see I dont feel Capriati played "amazing" tennis in her slam wins at all. The best tennis she ever played was in slams she didnt win which is just more the sign she wasnt really ever good enough to win 3 slams. The only slam Capriati played really great tennis to win was the 2001 Australian Open. Even so watching the event Seles had her beat in the quarters and choked a bit, Davenport played one of the worst matches of her career in the semis, and Hingis was completely off her game in the final. Still with Hingis, Davenport, Seles, Venus, and Serena all in the quarters and coming through I agree she definitely earned that one.

The 2001 French was nothing that impressive. Struggling 3 sets Serena on clay back when Serena was a lousy clay courter, beating a by then mentally fried huge headcase Hingis in the semis, and then having a surprisingly hard time with a baby Clijsters in the final. As I mentioned I think she lucked out bigtime with many key withdrawals (Seles, Pierce, Davenport) and many key early losses (Venus and Mauresmo especialy). Even lucked out probably that Henin choked a big lead vs Kim in the semis as I think she would have beaten Capriati in the final.

The 2002 Australian? That was the luckiest slam win for a women EVER IMO. And she certainly didnt play amazing tennis whatsoever to win it. I was actually surprised how sluggish she looked. Serena and Davenport both had to miss the tournament with injuries, and both would have almost certainly won it this year IMO. Hingis was playing superb tennis all tournament but played 40% of that level in the final making it obvious she now had some mental block with Capriati, and even playing so poorly still should have won the final but blew 4 match points in the 2nd set.
Seles playing as she was here would have beaten Capriati, but unfortunately she ran into 7 unforced error Hingis in the semis rather than 50+ unforced error Hingis that Capriati did in the finals.

The best tennis Capriati ever played in a Grand Slam was probably in this order the 1991 U.S Open, 2003 U.S Open, 2000 Australian Open, 2001 Australian Open, 2002 French Open, 1991 Wimbledon. So of the 6 best grand slam events she probably ever played she only won 1 of those, and even that arguably wasnt one of her 2 or 3 best.


And NO Capriati was in no way unlucky not to win the 2004 U.S Open:

1. She never should have even beaten Serena, a tainted win with those bogus line calls.

2. She was not unlucky to lose to Dementieva. Elena had an injury, was fatigued off a really long 3 setter, and beat Capriati at her own power game hitting 41 winners to Capriati's 11.

3. She would have clearly lost the final to Kuznetsova anyway the way Kuznetsova played the final. Kuznetsova was hitting her forehand like Capriati probably never hit it in her life in that final, let alone at that point in her career (and you can tell from my comments I dont rate Kuznetsova too highly but she was on fire in that final especialy). And she completely overpowered Dementieva who herself had overpowed Capriati.

4. The only one who was unlucky to not win the 2004 U.S Open was Davenport who had the tournament in the bag if she didnt reaggravate an old thigh injury early in the 2nd set vs Kuznetsova.

Capriati was past her prime again by 2004 even though she still posted some decent results. The 2003 U.S Open was the end of her 2nd prime. Her winning the 2004 U.S Open would have required almost as much of a fluke as her 2002 Australian Open title was. She was the weakest of the 4 semifinalists at that point in time, and she didnt even really deserve to be in the semis anyway.
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Old Aug 4th, 2010, 04:40 AM   #14
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

Quote:
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Mike and Matt are sabatini haters. You see, Gaby is the weakest grand slam winner eventhough she beat Graf in the US Open final in straight sets and she almost beat Graf again in the 1991 Wimbledon final.
Thanks for the explanation. I dont like to judge but it does seem this particular poster (Mike) especialy has an agenda of sorts.
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Old Aug 4th, 2010, 04:54 AM   #15
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Re: Rank Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mauresmo, Martinez, Kuz., Clijsters, and Pierce

1- Clijsters
2- Mauresmo
3- Capriati
4- Sabatini
5- Martinez
6- Novotna
7- Pierce
8- Kuznetsova
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