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Old Jul 7th, 2010, 11:05 AM   #46
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
glad u mentioned it... 'the golden slam' is the #1 'great pretension' of the steffi graf fan world. there WAS no golden slam throughout the history of our sport. '88 was the first year of something that now happens only every 4 years... so while no one prior to '88 won a golden slam, one never existed before! a small thing to overlook. and one must be lucky indeed to happen to hit stride on a year when the olympics just happen to occur.

i definitely prefer a classic at eastbourne to a dud at wimbledon. i think this issue comes down to who loves TENNIS (ie, the art of the sport and how it is played) and who loves the sheen of status symbols & what the flock gathers around.

I love players who say, "I play every match like its the finals of wimbledon" versus those who say, "I dont really try all year unless it's a slam because thats what people remember." (which current player has basically said that? ) Reason being that only one of those approaches has integrity.

there's a world of difference between playing for the history books and playing for greatness. Greatness is an every day affair...it is about every moment, not just the ones when others are looking. But this is an issue the entire globe is struggling with. If they don't have their hype to accompany their moment, they fail to know if the moment had value.

But back to the original point.... Why O Why couldnt Martina win that slam? Because there was another champion balancing out her career results named chris evert who won a slam every year for 13 years straight.

Somehow chris & martina's slam count must be added to one another, so that they each have 36 in order to show the true comparison to graf's 22. Due to significant circumstances, steffi played in a single-champion era whereas chris & martina shared the winnings.

These are the kind of calculations that statisticians cant make, and point to how complicated it really is to compare great champions, as each era has its own variables. But it does suggest people should stop over-simplifying to 'slam totals' as a way of measuring a player's worth. Thinking is FUN and should not be hammered down to the default mode of 'paint by numbers'! (Why o why do people hate gray areas that stand in the way of over-simplified results???)
DazeI would rather watch a great match from Eastbourne than a dud from Wimbledon as well, but it doesnt make it more important than the Wimbledon match. And the issue of commitment to the tour and non GS events is the issue that the ATP and the WTA need to address. It is not going to suddenly make non GS events more competitive by trying to denigrate the GS events. You perhaps forget that the GS events are the ones that make you as a player, and motivate you year by year.By the way you are so correct re the stupidity of the Golden Slam being treated as a historic moment, when in actual fact it had as you say only came into modern being in 88.
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Old Jul 7th, 2010, 01:27 PM   #47
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
DazeI would rather watch a great match from Eastbourne than a dud from Wimbledon as well, but it doesnt make it more important than the Wimbledon match. And the issue of commitment to the tour and non GS events is the issue that the ATP and the WTA need to address. It is not going to suddenly make non GS events more competitive by trying to denigrate the GS events. You perhaps forget that the GS events are the ones that make you as a player, and motivate you year by year.By the way you are so correct re the stupidity of the Golden Slam being treated as a historic moment, when in actual fact it had as you say only came into modern being in 88.
I dont think i'm denigrating grand slam tournaments.... they do take a full 2 weeks and do include the entire healthy draw of players. but its all anyone talks about or acknowledges... i mean gimme a break, tennis is played year around. it all matters. so raising the value of tennis as its played throughout the year should not 'threaten' the grand slam events.

re: making you as a player & generating interest, you are there talking about professional business issues. i am talking about art. but for the record, i dont think tennis has been helped much by business...i think its ruined most of the finer qualities i used to enjoy and value in this sport. i wish the business heads would get out so we could go back to real tennis and not glorified handball.

p.s. pls dont think my comments of the slam relate to chris. i actually consider her a grand slam winner, having ignored the OZ for 9 years and the french for 3.... i dont have any insecurity about her accomplishment or merit as a player (ie, i dont think she needs any more than she already has)...i actually think i'm having a similar attitude to the slam as she had in the 70s (she and almost all the players in fact) & not updating it to suit contemporary tastes.
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Old Jul 7th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #48
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I dont think i'm denigrating grand slam tournaments.... they do take a full 2 weeks and do include the entire healthy draw of players. but its all anyone talks about or acknowledges... i mean gimme a break, tennis is played year around. it all matters. so raising the value of tennis as its played throughout the year should not 'threaten' the grand slam events.

re: making you as a player & generating interest, you are there talking about professional business issues. i am talking about art. but for the record, i dont think tennis has been helped much by business...i think its ruined most of the finer qualities i used to enjoy and value in this sport. i wish the business heads would get out so we could go back to real tennis and not glorified handball.

p.s. pls dont think my comments of the slam relate to chris. i actually consider her a grand slam winner, having ignored the OZ for 9 years and the french for 3.... i dont have any insecurity about her accomplishment or merit as a player (ie, i dont think she needs any more than she already has)...i actually think i'm having a similar attitude to the slam as she had in the 70s (she and almost all the players in fact) & not updating it to suit contemporary tastes.
DazeThanks I am seeing your argument more clearly following that post. But by the same token that you correctly look at the attitude of the 70s as being the relevant ones to the time, so now it is the cult of the GS that is all. But you are right, we shouldnt therefore impress that cult on to prievious eras. And I do think that the determination that was there week in week out, even till the early 90s, does not exist now. But it is part of the laziness of the contemporary world. The same attitudes that mean the West is so far behind the East in developing tennis players. Solving that one is going to be so hard Daze.
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Old Jul 7th, 2010, 07:02 PM   #49
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
I have it 10-2 in favor of King on McCall's tour. Otherwise, King led 30-9.
29-9 in Tournament Play

BJ's 29 wins by Season (Oct-Sept)

1961
6-4 6-4 Wightman Cup Chicago

1963
6-4 6-4 Wimbledon SF
6-4 4-6 6-3 Wightman Cup
6-4 6-1 PSW SF

1964
4-6 6-2 6-3 Wightman Cup
6-36-3 Wimbledon QF
6-4 6-3 Fed Cup SF, Philly

1965
6-2 6-4 Fed Cup SF, Melbourne
16-14 6-2 US Nat. QF

1966
5-7 6-2 6-3 Wightman Cup

1967
6-3 6-4 Fed Cup F , Berlin
4-6 7-5 6-2 Wimbledon SF
6-1 6-2 Wightman Cup
11-9 6-4 US Nat. F

1968
4-6 7-5 6-2 Wimbledon SF

1969

4-6 6-2 6-3 Aussie Open SF
5-7 6-3 6-0 S. African SF
6-2 6-3 PSW F

1970
6-4 6-4 Dallas SF
6-3 4-6 6-1 Durban SF
6-4 6-2 Wightman Cup

1971
8-6 3-6 6-1 BR. Indoor SF
6-0 6-0 San Francisco SF
6-2 6-0 Long Beach SF
7-5 6-3 Milwaukee SF (In)
6-4 6-1 Chattanooga F
6-2 6-2 Winchester SF
6-4 4-6 6-3 Birmingham, Mich (In) SF
6-2 7-5 New York SF
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Old Jul 7th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #50
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
29-9 in Tournament Play

BJ's 29 wins by Season (Oct-Sept)

1961
6-4 6-4 Wightman Cup Chicago

1963
6-4 6-4 Wimbledon SF
6-4 4-6 6-3 Wightman Cup
6-4 6-1 PSW SF

1964
4-6 6-2 6-3 Wightman Cup
6-36-3 Wimbledon QF
6-4 6-3 Fed Cup SF, Philly

1965
6-2 6-4 Fed Cup SF, Melbourne
16-14 6-2 US Nat. QF

1966
5-7 6-2 6-3 Wightman Cup

1967
6-3 6-4 Fed Cup F , Berlin
4-6 7-5 6-2 Wimbledon SF
6-1 6-2 Wightman Cup
11-9 6-4 US Nat. F

1968
4-6 7-5 6-2 Wimbledon SF

1969

4-6 6-2 6-3 Aussie Open SF
5-7 6-3 6-0 S. African SF
6-2 6-3 PSW F

1970
6-4 6-4 Dallas SF
6-3 4-6 6-1 Durban SF
6-4 6-2 Wightman Cup

1971
8-6 3-6 6-1 BR. Indoor SF
6-0 6-0 San Francisco SF
6-2 6-0 Long Beach SF
7-5 6-3 Milwaukee SF (In)
6-4 6-1 Chattanooga F
6-2 6-2 Winchester SF
6-4 4-6 6-3 Birmingham, Mich (In) SF
6-2 7-5 New York SF
Chris Am I seeing right? 60 60 in Long Beach?Ann must have been way off form there. Thanks though, interesting results to read.
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Old Jul 7th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #51
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
29-9 in Tournament Play

BJ's 29 wins by Season (Oct-Sept)

1961
6-4 6-4 Wightman Cup Chicago

1963
6-4 6-4 Wimbledon SF
6-4 4-6 6-3 Wightman Cup
6-4 6-1 PSW SF

1964
4-6 6-2 6-3 Wightman Cup
6-36-3 Wimbledon QF
6-4 6-3 Fed Cup SF, Philly

1965
6-2 6-4 Fed Cup SF, Melbourne
16-14 6-2 US Nat. QF

1966
5-7 6-2 6-3 Wightman Cup

1967
6-3 6-4 Fed Cup F , Berlin
4-6 7-5 6-2 Wimbledon SF
6-1 6-2 Wightman Cup
11-9 6-4 US Nat. F

1968
4-6 7-5 6-2 Wimbledon SF

1969

4-6 6-2 6-3 Aussie Open SF
5-7 6-3 6-0 S. African SF
6-2 6-3 PSW F

1970
6-4 6-4 Dallas SF
6-3 4-6 6-1 Durban SF
6-4 6-2 Wightman Cup

1971
8-6 3-6 6-1 BR. Indoor SF
6-0 6-0 San Francisco SF
6-2 6-0 Long Beach SF
7-5 6-3 Milwaukee SF (In)
6-4 6-1 Chattanooga F
6-2 6-2 Winchester SF
6-4 4-6 6-3 Birmingham, Mich (In) SF
6-2 7-5 New York SF
Corrections/Addition:

1963
6-4, 6-1 PSW QF

1967
6-3, 6-4 Wimbledon F

1969
9-7, 7-5 Midland SF (addition)

1971
6-2, 7-6(0) New York SF
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 06:14 AM   #52
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
DazeThanks I am seeing your argument more clearly following that post. But by the same token that you correctly look at the attitude of the 70s as being the relevant ones to the time, so now it is the cult of the GS that is all. But you are right, we shouldnt therefore impress that cult on to prievious eras. And I do think that the determination that was there week in week out, even till the early 90s, does not exist now. But it is part of the laziness of the contemporary world. The same attitudes that mean the West is so far behind the East in developing tennis players. Solving that one is going to be so hard Daze.
Hi Iaian and Daze. I think Daze has a great point and I concur. Back in the day, before big business and big dollars essentially stripped our sport of the artistry and fun of competing, the players (generally speaking) tended to compete for love and pride. So he is right that they gave their all 52 weeks of the year and when assessing greatness this must be given fair weighting. As far as I am concerned the Slams are given too much weight, esp these days when some players suggest that is all they live for. Well, it wasn't always like that.

Give me the wooden racket, low prizemoney era any day. At least artistry, style, strategy and passion thrived.
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 06:47 AM   #53
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
glad u mentioned it... 'the golden slam' is the #1 'great pretension' of the steffi graf fan world.
OK, whatever. Contact me the next time it's done. Let's see how "pretentious" (?) it is.

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
there WAS no golden slam throughout the history of our sport. '88 was the first year of something that now happens only every 4 years... so while no one prior to '88 won a golden slam, one never existed before! a small thing to overlook.
C'est vrai! And yet prior to 1988, the only Grand Slams were won in non-Olympic years. So even if tennis were in the Olympics, Court, Connolly, Budge and Laver couldn't have won a Golden Slam anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
and one must be lucky indeed to happen to hit stride on a year when the olympics just happen to occur.
Aw, how terribly sweet of you. That Stef, ALWAYS just a lucky gal. Well as they say, better to be lucky than good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
i definitely prefer a classic at eastbourne to a dud at wimbledon. i think this issue comes down to who loves TENNIS (ie, the art of the sport and how it is played) and who loves the sheen of status symbols & what the flock gathers around.
I prefer a classic anywhere. As a fan, I understand that Wimbledon does mean more, overall. Maybe in some people's minds a win other than Wimbledon, US, French, or Australia means more. Just like in team sports, a regular season performance may be more satisfying than winning the World Series or Super Bowl. No matter, because it's what you do in the majors that the majority of folks will remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I love players who say, "I play every match like its the finals of wimbledon" versus those who say, "I dont really try all year unless it's a slam because thats what people remember." (which current player has basically said that? ) Reason being that only one of those approaches has integrity.
One of the things I loved about that lucky gal (and remember she was ONLY lucky, not good!) Steffi is that she tried hard everytime she walked on court. Now I know she was only lucky to beat Chris Evert for the 8th straight time in that VS of Florida final in 1989 (was that a classic?). Like Miss Evert, the lucky Miss Graf wanted to beat her opponent as badly as she could, no matter the tournament. Both understood the value of competing at the highest level all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
there's a world of difference between playing for the history books and playing for greatness. Greatness is an every day affair...it is about every moment, not just the ones when others are looking. But this is an issue the entire globe is struggling with. If they don't have their hype to accompany their moment, they fail to know if the moment had value.
Now it's just me, I'm sure. But I recall watching both Miss Evert and Miss Graf, and neither ever claimed or pretended they were playing for the history books. They were always playing to be the best, to push themselves to be the best. In fact Miss Graf said near the end of her career she never had time to think or ponder her place in history, that was a conversation for others to have, or for her to think about in the future. (Then again, how dare Steffi even think she belonged int he conversation of greatness, she was only "lucky"!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
But back to the original point.... Why O Why couldnt Martina win that slam? Because there was another champion balancing out her career results named chris evert who won a slam every year for 13 years straight.
But Evert certainly didn't beat Martina en route to winning the French in 1983 or the Australian in 1984! How "nice" of others to do the the dirty work in 1983-1984, since Chris was too busy losing 12 consecutive matches to Martina! (me-oww, how mean of me to tell the truth!) So back to the original point, why oh why couldn't Martina win the Grand Slam in 1983, or 1984? Why? I can only conclude she was not as "lucky" as Steffi Graf!

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
Somehow chris & martina's slam count must be added to one another, so that they each have 36 in order to show the true comparison to graf's 22. Due to significant circumstances, steffi played in a single-champion era whereas chris & martina shared the winnings.
Eww, gross. Martina and Chris morphing into one being! No. I recognize them as two distinct individuals and champions. Their individual records stand on their own. And no, you don't get the combo deal of Chris + Martina = SuperWoman! The true comparison of # of majors won is looking at the actual, real results (horrors, I want to use actual, real results, not the "Woulda, coulda, shoulda" stuff or some other make believe fantasy world. I must be so mean!!!!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
These are the kind of calculations that statisticians cant make, and point to how complicated it really is to compare great champions, as each era has its own variables. But it does suggest people should stop over-simplifying to 'slam totals' as a way of measuring a player's worth. Thinking is FUN and should not be hammered down to the default mode of 'paint by numbers'! (Why o why do people hate gray areas that stand in the way of over-simplified results???)
Yes, it really is complicated to compare great champions. Only fools and fans (and pundits) do that. That's part of the fun!!! (Call me crazy but I seem to have a healthier respect for the champions who refuse to indulge in who the greatest is. Funny too, how one Miss "Lucky" Steffi Graf, humble as she may be, never enters that conversation. Only praising her competition. Something Motor mouth Martina could never do!) Yes tennis like life is a multi, techni-colored dream coat of a world. There are more than gray areas, or even paint by the numbers. But then when you have to talk numbers, there are basic rules. Such as 22 is greater than 18, in just picking out two numbers at absolute random
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 06:56 AM   #54
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by tennisvideos View Post
Hi Iaian and Daze. I think Daze has a great point and I concur. Back in the day, before big business and big dollars essentially stripped our sport of the artistry and fun of competing, the players (generally speaking) tended to compete for love and pride. So he is right that they gave their all 52 weeks of the year and when assessing greatness this must be given fair weighting. As far as I am concerned the Slams are given too much weight, esp these days when some players suggest that is all they live for. Well, it wasn't always like that.

Give me the wooden racket, low prizemoney era any day. At least artistry, style, strategy and passion thrived.
There is no going back to the "olden" days of wood rackets, no prize money.

Yes there are big dollars to be won today. And yes for some of the lesser lights, their agents (how I detest them!) want to build up 3rd round or QF losses in majors as major accomplishments.....because it will get them a better endorsement deal!

I still think there are players today who compete with a tremendous amount of passion, artistry, and style (Roger Federer anyone?) I think Serena Williams competes with more passion and commitment now than she did back in 2002-2003 when she was dominating. I believe she understands herself and the game, and has a healthier respect for the sport. That's a result of her maturity as a person and competitor.

Are the majors given too much weight? Should every tournament be equal? Should there be no rankings whatsoever?
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 07:04 AM   #55
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
DazeI would rather watch a great match from Eastbourne than a dud from Wimbledon as well, but it doesnt make it more important than the Wimbledon match. And the issue of commitment to the tour and non GS events is the issue that the ATP and the WTA need to address. It is not going to suddenly make non GS events more competitive by trying to denigrate the GS events. You perhaps forget that the GS events are the ones that make you as a player, and motivate you year by year.By the way you are so correct re the stupidity of the Golden Slam being treated as a historic moment, when in actual fact it had as you say only came into modern being in 88.
Well, the Grand Slam only came into being in 1938, when Budge won it. Was it "stupidity" to treat it as a historic moment back then, since it had never been done before?

Sorry, I just don't get why folks want to denigrate a uniquely phenomenal achievement. I know tennis has had a quirky history in the Olympics. But it was in the original modern Olympic games. IMHO, it's a pity it didn't always continue. The Olympics are the world's biggest sporting event. I think it is totally fitting that tennis is in the Olympics. I mean if the sport shouldn't get so wrapped up in the 4 majors (hey they are called majors for a reason....they are major events!) maybe we ought to just ditch tennis from the Olympics, because soooooooo many more people would rather watch the ATP 250 event from Washington or the Tier III tournament from Sopot that same week the Olympics are being held.

It's just my humble opinion (what do I know anyway?) but I believe Steffi Graf's Golden Grand Slam is, was, and always will be considered to be a historic moment in the annals of the sport. I also don't believe anyone will ever duplicate it either. Then again, I guess there is the other view: Steffi Graf was just plain old lucky that Martina didn't want to play the Olympics in 1988, Chris Evert couldn't be sufficiently motivated to play well, and Steffi 'just happened' to come into her prime the year the Olympics were played. Afterall, she was "lucky" throughout her entire career!!!
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 10:09 AM   #56
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
There is no going back to the "olden" days of wood rackets, no prize money.

Yes there are big dollars to be won today. And yes for some of the lesser lights, their agents (how I detest them!) want to build up 3rd round or QF losses in majors as major accomplishments.....because it will get them a better endorsement deal!

I still think there are players today who compete with a tremendous amount of passion, artistry, and style (Roger Federer anyone?) I think Serena Williams competes with more passion and commitment now than she did back in 2002-2003 when she was dominating. I believe she understands herself and the game, and has a healthier respect for the sport. That's a result of her maturity as a person and competitor.

Are the majors given too much weight? Should every tournament be equal? Should there be no rankings whatsoever?
I guess you are just twisting my words or taking them to the extreme. Of course I know there is no going back to wood or less prizemoney. My point is that in those days of little or no prizemoney and wooden rackets a few things stood out -

1) most of the players were there for the love of the game. Today you can't tell as a lot of parents obviously push their kids for the money or a number of players are motivated by the dollar. Of course there are some who are still passionate and love the game. I am well aware of that.

2) there was an abundance of styles with wood. And more strategic play was required as you couldn't just bludgeon winners like you can today.

As for my comments on the slams getting all the focus, I was referring also to a lot of the posters who just factor in the slams when considering greatness. And of course they mean more. But as Daze says, the sport is a year long thing and not just 8 weeks, so that needs to be considered as well.

They were just my thoughts and not meant to be taken to the extreme.
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #57
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

tennis is the winner!!

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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 11:50 AM   #58
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Originally Posted by the computer View Post
There are many wonderful achievements in tennis.
The Golden Slam is a wonderful achievement there is no doubt about that.
Winning 9 Wimbledons is also a fantastic achievement.
Winning 7 French Titles is a stupendous achievement.
Winning 24 Slams is a mind blowing achievement.
How about - Only losing one match in your entire career (Lenglen) - not a bad achievement!
My mum’s whisky cake is the most wonderful achievement (oops wrong category)

Why do we worry and compete so much about who hits fluffy balls the most wonderfully - tennis is the winner!!
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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 12:47 PM   #59
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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One of the things I loved about that lucky gal (and remember she was ONLY lucky, not good!) Steffi is that she tried hard everytime she walked on court. Now I know she was only lucky to beat Chris Evert for the 8th straight time in that VS of Florida final in 1989 (was that a classic?). Like Miss Evert, the lucky Miss Graf wanted to beat her opponent as badly as she could, no matter the tournament. Both understood the value of competing at the highest level all the time.
my gosh, your post was just riddled with your inability to ever think anyone was talking about anyone but graf!!! i was so clearly talking about serena, in discussing womens tennis with a much larger scope than 'fraulein forehand'... it was just hilarious but kind of disturbing.

and as for 20 year old steffi beating 34 year old chris, well yeah... OBVIOUSLY she was lucky to have the dynamic in her favor. You -like so many graf fans- cant seem to accept that chris & martina were in their 30s, past the age steffi retired. for instance, evert fans never bring up wins over court in 1975-1977 because theres no dignity in it.

but its ok, its the same quality of thinking that makes you continue to wave the flag of the golden slam, even after proclaiming the others would not have been able to compete for it in an 'olympic year' I mean, its great to have won it but theres no point in waving it as an accomplishment above other players if they never were put in a posiiton to compete for it. It's like 'ha ha we ran an extra race & u didnt get to run! so we give her a golden star' ...I feel certain steffi graf is not nearly as insecure as her fans tend to be in her honor.

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Old Jul 8th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #60
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Re: Womens All Time Rankings 1884-2009

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Corrections/Addition:

1963
6-4, 6-1 PSW QF

1967
6-3, 6-4 Wimbledon F

1969
9-7, 7-5 Midland SF (addition)

1971
6-2, 7-6(0) New York SF

The Midland event in October 1969 was part of the McCall Pro-Tour and as such does not count in official records of their h2hs which according to Joe McCauley an eminent statistician of the time was King 21 Jones 8 at the end of September 1970. BJ then beat Ann in the British Open and 7 Slims Events in 1971 with Ann winning their final ever match in Las Vegas to leave the score 29-9.

This was Mrs Jones last event on the tour. The following week she competed in the Howard Hughes Open in Las Vegas before terminating her contract with George McCall by mutual consent.
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