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View Poll Results: Outside of winning Slams, what is the next most important factor when it comes to ran

How many total weeks spent @ number one. 50 25.64%
Versatility; being able to win titles on all surfaces. 51 26.15%
Total number of (non-slam) tournaments won. 40 20.51%
Win/Loss record; H2H Records. 36 18.46%
How many years you end the season @ number one. 7 3.59%
other (please explain) 11 5.64%
Voters: 195. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:12 PM   #31
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Now the criteria changes but you were just advocating #1 weeks as the 2nd most important stat? A stat Mauresmo doubles Clijsters in which would mean according to you Mauresmo is greater no contest. You can't even get your own story together.

First thinking Justine deserves a top seed in slams and now this.

Your whole argument and base just got ripped to shreds and now you're backtracking. No credibility.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #32
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorophyll View Post
Now the criteria changes but you were just advocating #1 weeks as the 2nd most important stat? A stat Mauresmo doubles Clijsters in which would mean according to you Mauresmo is greater no contest. You can't even get your own story together.

First thinking Justine deserves a top seed in slams and now this.

Your whole argument and base just got ripped to shreds and now you're backtracking. No credibility.
all respect to momo and clijsters but they aren't greats, so weeks at number is obviously important but not the be all and end all because neither of them had loads of weeks dominating at number 1.

also i would call it very very close between kim and momo but id look at slams 1st (as everyone does) and kim has 4 slam RU to momo's 1, as well as semis or better at all 4 slams.

and when did i say henin deserves a top seed in slams, i said a top 8 seed for wimbledon, but she will probably be ranked close to that anyway.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:30 PM   #33
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

The problem with putting to much emphasis on ANY one of the above--especially slams, IMHO, but any of them--is that it assumes they're a constant. Which they aren't.

Slams are especially prone to fluctuate, because FO and AO from the '70s and '80s tended to attract some extremely weak fields (and some of the fields were also smaller). The level of play on the tour, at tournaments, at slams, etc. can fluctuate enormously from year to year. They change the points and the way rankings are calculated all the time.

So yes, while it's pretty damn clear that somebody with double digit slams is pretty darned good, especially if they have a winning percentage over .800 and 100 titles and blah, blah, blah, you're eventually reduced to mere speculation. Career wins and lifetime winning percentages do the most to level out the variables because they track the longest time frame. Major slam winners, who have long track records of winning multiple slams also help factor out the variables over their career.

But it's just not possible to compare apples to apples unless comparing players from the same era. And even then, I'm afraid I have to agree with JJ. Sometimes, you do just get lucky for a couple of weeks.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:33 PM   #34
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit View Post
Quite honestly there's no right or wrong, just opinions. I've been enjoynig the exchanges and reading some thoughful posts.

Now if I'm playing devil's advocate here I'd say that just because your second most important factors goes to one player, that doesn't mean that that one factor determines "greatness". It's just one big notch for said player, then you move down the list to your next important, then next, and so on... when it's all said and done you come up with who you consider greatest.

The closest debates seem to be:
Graf vs. Navratilova
Venus vs. Justine
Sharapova vs. Clijsters


For a while it was Seles vs Serena, but Serena has added some distance in a lot of areas, namely slams won- which has turned things decidedly to her favor.

Even though there's no real way to measure greatness, it's still interesting hearing what people consider when trying to answer that question.
exactly, weeks at #1 are what i look at next, but if that is the only thing a player has over the other (slam ru's, career titles, YEC won all indicate the other player) then you have to way it up.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 08:11 PM   #35
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Volcana View Post
Historical significance. If they still talk about you 50 years later, you were great.
Players could be talked about 50 years later for more than their on-court accomplishments. Monica Seles for her stabbing and Billie Jean King for all she did for women's sports, for example. It'll still be talked about 50 years later, but neither woman really figures in a discussion about the greats.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 08:17 PM   #36
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by hingis-seles View Post
Players could be talked about 50 years later for more than their on-court accomplishments. Monica Seles for her stabbing and Billie Jean King for all she did for women's sports, for example. It'll still be talked about 50 years later, but neither woman really figures in a discussion about the greats.
Monica Seles and Billie Jean King don't figure in a discussion about the greats?!
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #37
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Serena~lover View Post
Monica Seles and Billie Jean King don't figure in a discussion about the greats?!
Neither one has the numbers to be compared to the upper echelon of greats, namely: Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Wills Moody.

When it comes down to numbers, neither Seles nor King have the record to seriously contend in a discussion on the greatest players in women's tennis history.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 08:32 PM   #38
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis-seles View Post
Neither one has the numbers to be compared to the upper echelon of greats, namely: Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Wills Moody.

When it comes down to numbers, neither Seles nor King have the record to seriously contend in a discussion on the greatest players in women's tennis history.
Why does it always have to come down to numbers? Suzanne Lenglen, Maureen Connolly are both widely considered among the greats by women's tennis experts and they don't have the numbers. Similar for BJK - you watch matches from her heyday and they were calling her one of the greatest of all time then, many still do now. That's a pretty strong endorsement imo irrespective of numbers.

I understand what you're saying though. If we were going to have a "serious" all-gloves-off GOAT discussion then BJK and Seles wouldn't make the top tier, but would be in the second one. Still Greats though.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #39
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by DOUBLEFIST View Post
Gotta say weeks at number one, on first glance.

Versatility is nice, but without a definitive record you're simply a "Jack of all trades.. master of none."
I'm with you on 'weeks at number one', but if the OP is defining versatility as winning SLAMS on all surfaces, they go hand in hand. Graf, Navratilova, Evert were all top, top players on all 3 surfaces (Navratilova on clay probably the weakest of the three on all the respective surfaces), and they have YEARS spent at #1. I think versatility frequently falls under the 'weeks at #1' banner; for example, Venus has spent just 11 weeks at #1, and it's partially because during her 2-slam a year phase she was upset-prone on slower surfaces. Serena, meanwhile, was utterly dominant over EVERYBODY in her 2002-2003 stretch, and that multi-surface dominance of the slams kept her atop the rankings for over a year, even months after she was on injury hiatus in 2003.

Even take someone like Sharapova; during her #1 stretches, she had mediocre clay season results, and that kept her from building a huge lead in points. If she were more versatile at the top events, she would have a bigger buffer and spend more time at the top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLEFIST View Post
Total # non-slams is not telling either. Maybe the player played a lot of MMs.

Head to head often boils down to just a match up thing rather than indication of overall dominance.

Ending season at #1 is overrated. Being #1 in spring is no less an achievement than #1 in winter.
Completely agree with all of the above. And, to be honest, other than head-to-head, these all factor into weeks at #1, too.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 10:35 PM   #40
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Chorophyll View Post
Clijsters and Mauresmo both have two slams each. Mauresmo has over twice as many #1 weeks as Clijsters.

Clijsters has won 10% more of her matches in her career than Mauresmo and you're going to tell me Mauresmo is greater because she has more #1 weeks as the tiebreaker? Get the hell out of here.
Yeah number one is very relevant prior to 1997. Since 1997, it has reflected total number of matches won, rather than percent of matches won. In other words, losses do not count. It's actually absurd, but of course, when it comes to this board, I am, unfortunately, talking to a wall on this point...
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #41
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by OsloErik View Post
I'm with you on 'weeks at number one', but if the OP is defining versatility as winning SLAMS on all surfaces, they go hand in hand. Graf, Navratilova, Evert were all top, top players on all 3 surfaces (Navratilova on clay probably the weakest of the three on all the respective surfaces), and they have YEARS spent at #1. I think versatility frequently falls under the 'weeks at #1' banner; for example, Venus has spent just 11 weeks at #1, and it's partially because during her 2-slam a year phase she was upset-prone on slower surfaces. Serena, meanwhile, was utterly dominant over EVERYBODY in her 2002-2003 stretch, and that multi-surface dominance of the slams kept her atop the rankings for over a year, even months after she was on injury hiatus in 2003.

Even take someone like Sharapova; during her #1 stretches, she had mediocre clay season results, and that kept her from building a huge lead in points. If she were more versatile at the top events, she would have a bigger buffer and spend more time at the top.



Completely agree with all of the above. And, to be honest, other than head-to-head, these all factor into weeks at #1, too.
Agreed. Makes sense.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #42
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

I'd say H2H records and W/L records.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 01:27 AM   #43
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

i guess the number of weeks spent.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 01:35 AM   #44
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Not just one criteria,but number of GS won,number of weeks as number 1,winn/loss(H2H) record against other players that have been number 1(contenders for greatness)...all that combined should give you the answer...
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Old May 1st, 2010, 09:57 AM   #45
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

How about ALL of them? That's why I never understood people blah blahing Juju up to Serena's level. Serena HAS all of the elements: won all four majors, has the weeks as no.1, h2h.. is really no contest.
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