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View Poll Results: Outside of winning Slams, what is the next most important factor when it comes to ran

How many total weeks spent @ number one. 54 25.35%
Versatility; being able to win titles on all surfaces. 57 26.76%
Total number of (non-slam) tournaments won. 44 20.66%
Win/Loss record; H2H Records. 39 18.31%
How many years you end the season @ number one. 8 3.76%
other (please explain) 11 5.16%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #16
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by sammy01 View Post
i completely disagree. H2H can be a matter of surface to like nadal vs fed, they play very rarely on grass but more often on clay favouring nadal. or then you have venus vs henin, who met loads during venus's peak and only once during henins, thus a lopsided H2H. also serena say has a 0-2 h2h with bam bam, doesn't make serena any less of a player.
I actually chose "win/loss record; H2H for the reasons that Chorophyll stated. Although your points are well taken. Out of all of Steffi Graf's amazing acheivements I'm most proud that she doesn't have a losing record against any of her main rivals or any of the big names she's played in her career. A singular H2H record doesn't tell us anything (your example of Serena:BamBam), but when you consider that Serena doesn't have a losing record against any of her main rivals or against any of the greats she's ever played- that's quite an acheivement.


Additionally having a great win/loss record is directly correlated with greatness. When you look at player's career win/loss record and the players that end up being above 80% are the players that will likely be inducted into the tennis Hall of Fame. The win/loss records at a glance seem less significant, but if you really think about it, it's probably the single most telling.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #17
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

I don't buy the supposition that slams are automatically the first qualifier for greatness. The term "one-slam" wonder is a derogatory one for a reason.

I suppose you could counter with the argument that well, "one-slam wonders" aren't part of any greatness debate, and I suppose you're right. But really, most of the people who are part of the GOAT discussion (pointless as it may be) have all the other things in truckloads with one prominent exception, that being Serena, and she's so far behind the curve on nonslam titles and weeks at #1 (which would be my next two choices, along with career wins in general) that she's never going to catch up. In fairness to her, I think more players moving forward are going to have records like hers than like Chris or Martina's.

To my other point, it's actually usually pretty easy to spot the best of an era and the runner up. Where you really start to have to parse these things is when you're separating the Svetas from the TOBs and the Dementievas from the Myskinas. Then I'm not so sure that you automatically give anyone the nod based on slams, that's all I'm saying.

And I really think career wins should be on the list. That 500 club is pretty exclusive. FWIW, the 20 tour titles club is also smaller than the slam-winners club.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #18
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Sir Stefwhit View Post
I actually chose "win/loss record; H2H for the reasons that Chorophyll stated. Although your points are well taken. Out of all of Steffi Graf's amazing acheivements I'm most proud that she doesn't have a losing record against any of her main rivals or any of the big names she's played in her career. A singular H2H record doesn't tell us anything (your example of Serena:BamBam), but when you consider that Serena doesn't have a losing record against any of her main rivals or against any of the greats she's ever played- that's quite an acheivement.


Additionally having a great win/loss record is directly correlated with greatness. When you look at player's career win/loss record and the players that end up being above 80% are the players that will likely be inducted into the tennis Hall of Fame. The win/loss records at a glance seem less significant, but if you really think about it, it's probably the single most telling.
thats why i more agree with your 2nd part of the post, career win/loss is much more telling as like in serena's case it includes that random bammer h2h.

btw doesn't grf have a losing H2H with durie?
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #19
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by sammy01 View Post
thats why i more agree with your 2nd part of the post, career win/loss is much more telling as like in serena's case it includes that random bammer h2h.

btw doesn't grf have a losing H2H with durie?
Career win/loss is comprised of all your H2Hs put together. If you having losing H2Hs, your career win/loss will not be as good.

Asserting dominance over your main rivals is the main stat for me which is directly shown in H2H. It would take a pretty unfathomable scenario for someone to lead all of their rivals in H2Hs, but not be more successful than them.

Weeks at #1 is an important stat, but we've seen far too often of girls holding onto #1 while having losing records against top 5 and top 10 players.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:50 PM   #20
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Chorophyll View Post
Career win/loss is comprised of all your H2Hs put together. If you having losing H2Hs, your career win/loss will not be as good.

Asserting dominance over your main rivals is the main stat for me which is directly shown in H2H. It would take a pretty unfathomable scenario for someone to lead all of their rivals in H2Hs, but not be more successful than them.

Weeks at #1 is an important stat, but we've seen far too often of girls holding onto #1 while having losing records against top 5 and top 10 players.
i know it is atp, but do you think then that feds losing h2h with nadal makes him any less great, or changes his place in history when comparing him with other greats?
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:50 PM   #21
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by sammy01 View Post
thats why i more agree with your 2nd part of the post, career win/loss is much more telling as like in serena's case it includes that random bammer h2h.

btw doesn't grf have a losing H2H with durie?
She does indeed, thankfully though Joe Durie was neither a main rival nor considered a "great" in the game...lol

And just as you stated, the second part (the win/loss part) is the main reason I selected that option as my choice for second most important factor. It looks like I'm the only one that's going that route in the poll.

And miffedmax is correct too- career wins should have been listed, although I would put that further down the list of importance, it's still says a lot.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:53 PM   #22
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Ya'll can say whatever you want in this thread. In reality, you all care about one thing and one thing only: grand slam count. I once created a thread with a very meticulous formula for defining greatness that gave slams two or three times as much weight as the next factor, and people still complained because Navratilova still killed Graf, and Evert was even slightly ahead. No one looks at the fact that Chrissie won over 90% of her matches and a third of the slams she entered. No one cares that Navratilova won 60 something overall slam titles and went literally years without losing a doubles match. No one cares that both players have over 50 more titles than Steffi. All people care about is the number of slam titles won.

Personally, I think percentages are most revealing.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:53 PM   #23
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by sammy01 View Post
i know it is atp, but do you think then that feds losing h2h with nadal makes him any less great, or changes his place in history when comparing him with other greats?
Again you go back to a singular H2H. Federer leads pretty much everyone else in H2H besides Murray and Simon. If he had losing H2Hs against a wider variety of people, his career would not be as successful.

Back to WTA, its no coincidence that outside of S. Williams the next two greatest active players Henin and Venus have the most match wins over her(though Dementieva has as many as Henin).

If you beat your threats more than they beat you its more important than Safina holding onto #1 for the majority of 2009 while losing in major SFs winning only 1 game.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #24
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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She does indeed, thankfully though Joe Durie was neither a main rival nor considered a "great" in the game...lol

And just as you stated, the second part (the win/loss part) is the main reason I selected that option as my choice for second most important factor. It looks like I'm the only one that's going that route in the poll.

And miffedmax is correct too- career wins should have been listed, although I would put that further down the list of importance, it's still says a lot.
durie was a top 5 player

career wins doesn't figure highly for me as i would guess someone like ASV has many more wins than serena or henin because she played a lot and carried on for years after her prime, but still picked up enough wins to make a difference.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #25
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by mboyle View Post
Ya'll can say whatever you want in this thread. In reality, you all care about one thing and one thing only: grand slam count. I once created a thread with a very meticulous formula for defining greatness that gave slams two or three times as much weight as the next factor, and people still complained because Navratilova still killed Graf, and Evert was even slightly ahead. No one looks at the fact that Chrissie won over 90% of her matches and a third of the slams she entered. No one cares that Navratilova won 60 something overall slam titles and went literally years without losing a doubles match. No one cares that both players have over 50 more titles than Steffi. All people care about is the number of slam titles won.

Personally, I think percentages are most revealing.
I think Navratilova is greater than Graf, but that is beyond this thread. Personally, I do take all that into consideration.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:55 PM   #26
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Win/Loss record clearly I'd rather be 35-0 playing 6 tournaments and ranked #2 than 55-15 playing 15 tournaments and being ranked #1 But it is essential to be ranked #1 for at least a decent period of time.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #27
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Originally Posted by Chorophyll View Post
Again you go back to a singular H2H. Federer leads pretty much everyone else in H2H besides Murray and Simon. If he had losing H2Hs against a wider variety of people, his career would not be as successful.

Back to WTA, its no coincidence that outside of S. Williams the next two greatest active players Henin and Venus have the most match wins over her(though Dementieva has as many as Henin).

If you beat your threats more than they beat you its more important than Safina holding onto #1 for the majority of 2009 while losing in major SFs winning only 1 game.
yes but if we are comparing 'greats' i.e players with several slams then surely that is true of both players so means very little. when comparing nav and evert, who both dominated all the played against and have winning H2H's against most, it is no help.

edit - what the dominating H2H stat shows is that a player is/was great, not if they are/aren't greater than someone else.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #28
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

Historical significance. If they still talk about you 50 years later, you were great.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #29
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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yes but if we are comparing 'greats' i.e players with several slams then surely that is true of both players so means very little. when comparing nav and evert, who both dominated all the played against and have winning H2H's against most, it is no help.

edit - what the dominating H2H stat shows is that a player is/was great, not if they are/aren't greater than someone else.
Clijsters and Mauresmo both have two slams each. Mauresmo has over twice as many #1 weeks as Clijsters.

Clijsters has won 10% more of her matches in her career than Mauresmo and you're going to tell me Mauresmo is greater because she has more #1 weeks as the tiebreaker? Get the hell out of here.
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Old Apr 30th, 2010, 08:08 PM   #30
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Re: What's most important when it comes to ranking GREATNESS?

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Clijsters and Mauresmo both have two slams each. Mauresmo has over twice as many #1 weeks as Clijsters.

Clijsters has won 10% more of her matches in her career than Mauresmo and you're going to tell me Mauresmo is greater because she has more #1 weeks as the tiebreaker? Get the hell out of here.
with those 2 i'd look at YEC won, career titles, weeks at #1 and slam RU's to decide.
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