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Old Feb 3rd, 2012, 06:55 PM   #1906
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

And I totally agree with Stef-fan about Seles. But, honestly, I don't want to talk about Seles, neither here nor anywhere else.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2012, 07:34 PM   #1907
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfajeffster View Post
Firstly, Hingis would (and probably still could with a little training) dismantle Wozniaki. Caroline has an extreme grip on her forehand, and the production is decidedly long and unsteady / unpredictable. That's why she usually hits it with loopy spin with depth to protect against the possibility of an error. Billie Jean once said "the first thing that breaks down under pressure is bad technique". She was right on point, even though speaking about Jana Novotna's forehand at the time. Caroline has great anticipation, but still not as great as Hingis was (IMO).
Actually I do agree that Hingis would beat Wozniacki too. And while I have some other questions about Caroline, this is not the thread for me to ask them LOL.

Since we are on the topic of forehands, why did Steffi's forehand prove to be an extremely lethal weapon and one of the best shots in the history of women's tennis when technically, it was flawed due to the relative lateness by which she hits it? Is it just a timing/rhythm thing, something that made sense for her but not to anyone else? (similar to her extremely high ball toss which still resulted in one of the best serves of her generation?)
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #1908
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Hmm, may be CKK read what Irma has posted, she completely changed her story now. She is saying that she never accused Steffi of losing purposefully, that Steffi is a great athelete and would never lose a game on purpose.

http://www.tennisnet.com/deutschland...lieren/3689166
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 01:47 AM   #1909
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

I wouldn't mind a little translation please, German is my Achilles' hill when it comes to main European languages!
About Wozniacki, I don't want to be disrespectful to a person who has achieved something as big as to be Nº1 in the world (even if its importance is more relative nowadays to be considered a really dominant player), but she is nowhere near Hingis' league: Martina proved to be lacking in power against powerful players like the Williamses, Graf or Seles when you take Monica's poorer movement in her second career out of the picture (shot by shot Martina couldn't stay on par with Monica's power and rally comfortably), but she was a genius tennis players with loads of talent who could find ways to win changing rythms, pace, her movement and anticipation, volleys, etc., something Caroline is greatly defficient at and renders her powerless when her retrieving abilities, which are big, are not enough to counter the very big hitters. I remember a match against Serena who, for all her greatness and tennis stature, is not the player who can hit the whole variety of shots as other all time greats, but against her raw power Caroline kept two entire sets playing the same game, and I really focused on her backhand,for instance, to see if she even tried a change, a slice, smth, as she was useless with her regular shot, and she could do NOTHING. It's really strange these last years in female tennis, as there've been so many players in the top spots whose game really came out as poor compared to earlier years top players, and I'm not even talking about a Navratilova or Seles, but even compared to the Novotnas or Martínezes of other times.

Re Graf, I disagree with you XTN as I think her forehand was not one of the best shots in history, but THE best shot ever! Seles' backhand or Serena's serve are amazing, but Steffi's forehand is still a league higher to me. And I agree with Alfa's quote, you can see it yourself if you play tennis as your faults become quite more evident when you play someone whose pace is higher or you get tight in a match, but I think the difference is that Caroline's forehand has technical flaws but she hasn't mastered her own way to hit it, while Steffi's is not right from a conventional point of view, but her way of hitting it was completely adequate and comfortable for her and she totally mastered it, no matter if no one else could hit a forehand like that so efficiently and so powerfully.
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 06:22 AM   #1910
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by gabybackhand View Post
Re Graf, I disagree with you XTN as I think her forehand was not one of the best shots in history, but THE best shot ever!
LOL when I got to reading 'not one of the best shots', I thought 'what the heck are you thinking?' Then I got to the next part which said 'the best shot ever' haha! I will not disagree with you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabybackhand View Post
I remember a match against Serena who, for all her greatness and tennis stature, is not the player who can hit the whole variety of shots as other all time greats, but against her raw power Caroline kept two entire sets playing the same game, and I really focused on her backhand,for instance, to see if she even tried a change, a slice, smth, as she was useless with her regular shot, and she could do NOTHING. It's really strange these last years in female tennis, as there've been so many players in the top spots whose game really came out as poor compared to earlier years top players, and I'm not even talking about a Navratilova or Seles, but even compared to the Novotnas or Martínezes of other times.
I do think that what is missing from a lot of the players now is variety. I often see rallies where a player is moved way out of position, and instead of hitting maybe a slice or heck even a moonball to try and neutralize the rally, they try to hit the ball back hard, often resulting in them not having enough time to get back into the point.
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #1911
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
Hmm, may be CKK read what Irma has posted, she completely changed her story now. She is saying that she never accused Steffi of losing purposefully, that Steffi is a great athelete and would never lose a game on purpose.

http://www.tennisnet.com/deutschland...lieren/3689166
The girl is making a story on her own, says a thing and denies it afterwards
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #1912
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by gabybackhand View Post
Re Graf, I disagree with you XTN as I think her forehand was not one of the best shots in history, but THE best shot ever! Seles' backhand or Serena's serve are amazing, but Steffi's forehand is still a league higher to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XTN View Post
LOL when I got to reading 'not one of the best shots', I thought 'what the heck are you thinking?' Then I got to the next part which said 'the best shot ever' haha! I will not disagree with you here.
^^same reaction here
That forehand the flying one from the double alley re
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #1913
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
Hmm, may be CKK read what Irma has posted, she completely changed her story now. She is saying that she never accused Steffi of losing purposefully, that Steffi is a great athelete and would never lose a game on purpose.

http://www.tennisnet.com/deutschland...lieren/3689166
Quote:
Originally Posted by djul14 View Post
The girl is making a story on her own, says a thing and denies it afterwards
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #1914
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabybackhand View Post
I wouldn't mind a little translation please, German is my Achilles' hill when it comes to main European languages!

Quote:
http://www.tennisnet.com/deutschland...lieren/3689166

(...)

Im Interview mit der Süddeutschen Zeitung haben Sie gesagt, dass Peter Graf seine Tochter Steffi dazu angehalten hat, das Olympia-Halbfinale 1988 im Doppel absichtlich zu verlieren. Wie kommen Sie zu diesem Vorwurf?

Ich habe nur beschrieben, was mein Stiefvater mir damals erzählt hat, was Peter Graf nach dem Match zu ihm gesagt hatte. Ich habe das nicht bewertet. Ich glaube nicht, dass mein Stiefvater sich das aus den Fingern gesaugt hat. Ich wollte damit nur darstellen, wie Peter Graf ist. Die Journalisten von damals und alle, die am Tenniszirkus teilgenommen haben, wissen das auch. Das war ja nicht das Einzige, was er von sich gegeben hat. Ich sehe das mit Abstand und muss selbst schon darüber schmunzeln. Das ist schon fast 25 Jahre her. Steffi würde nie mit Absicht verlieren. Ich würde jetzt auch nie etwas Schlechtes über Steffi sagen. Wir sind immer gut miteinander zurechtgekommen. Sie war eine der größten Sportlerinnen, die Deutschland je hatte. Da können wir lange warten, bis solche eine Spielerin wieder kommt.

Welche Reaktionen gab es auf Ihre Kritik an Steffi und ihrem Vater?

Peter Graf hat nur gesagt, dass er den Satz nicht gesagt hat. Was soll er auch anderes erzählen? Ansonsten gab es kaum Reaktionen. Im Interview ging es auch primär um etwas anderes.

Translation:

In an interview with the Süddeutsche Zeitung, you have said that Peter Graf encouraged his daughter Steffi to lose on purpose in the Olympic Doubles semi-final in 1988. How do you get to this accusation?

I've just described what my stepfather told me back then what Peter Graf said to him after the match. I haven't rated it. I do not think that my step-father invented this story. I just wanted to show Peter Graf how he really is. The journalists of that time and all those who participated in the tennis circuit know that too. That was not the only thing he has said. I see this from a distance and even have to smile about it now. It's been almost 25 years ago. Steffi would never lose on purpose. I would now never say anything bad about Steffi. We always got along well together. She was one of the greatest athletes that Germany ever had. We will have to wait a long time until such a player comes again.

What were the reactions to your criticism of Steffi and her father?

Peter Graf has only said that he did not say it. What else should he say? Otherwise there were hardly any responses. The interview was primarily about something else.
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Old Feb 5th, 2012, 01:35 AM   #1915
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Seleçao, thank you so much for the translation! I can see CKK doesn't want to openly criticize Steffi now, she probably had a hard time in Germany among most people being on Graf's side. But I'm not sure if what she says about Peter Graf is not true, he was known to be pretty obnoxious.
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Old Feb 5th, 2012, 05:30 AM   #1916
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
The problem is even Monica Seles thinks so, she did give multiple interviews where she said she wished she played the wimby final again.
I have heard lot of discussions on this forum and many others on how Steffi is a poor loser as she did not shake hands in a 'well mannered' fashion after a loss but I will tell you one think, all these years that I have known her, she never once said she wished she played a match that she lost again, never has she talked about any of her losses in that manner and I think that is the highest form of regard you give to your opponent, acknowledging no matter how well or bad you played, your opponent's play had a say in the outcome of the result. Not once have I seen Steffi give an interview saying she wished she played the 92 FO final again without any grunting involved.
Steffi's atheleticism in the 92 Wimby final was great, just have to see how she retrieves the lob by Monica and I don't think even Monica Seles can say that 'grunting' would have prevented Steffi from reaching that ball and returning it so well.
Here is the point I am talking about and there are so many such points that day that had nothing to do with Monica not 'grunting' that day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rLK...eature=related
Seles was a huge egomaniac of the highest order. She cant come to terms with the fact that even at her peak she could be that badly outplayed in such a big match point blank, but that is what happened. Despite her ego which was the size of her belly in the late 90s, I am sure even she deep down she knew she wasnt good enough to win Wimbledon, so had already started the annual habit of coming up with excuses for her failure to win it. In 1991 it was to simply not play with a non injury that took her weeks to think up when she was really boinking Donald Trump instead (and promptly was fined and threatened with suspension by the WTA), in 1992 it was to not grunt in the final, her brain was already storming to come up with her 1993 excuse, too bad we never go to see what it would have been.
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Old Feb 5th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #1917
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
Seles was a huge egomaniac of the highest order. She cant come to terms with the fact that even at her peak she could be that badly outplayed in such a big match point blank, but that is what happened. Despite her ego which was the size of her belly in the late 90s, I am sure even she deep down she knew she wasnt good enough to win Wimbledon, so had already started the annual habit of coming up with excuses for her failure to win it. In 1991 it was to simply not play with a non injury that took her weeks to think up when she was really boinking Donald Trump instead (and promptly was fined and threatened with suspension by the WTA), in 1992 it was to not grunt in the final, her brain was already storming to come up with her 1993 excuse, too bad we never go to see what it would have been.
Hoping we can express our opinions without being disrespectful no matter how much we dislike the other player's attitude or behavior as this is Steffi's site and disrespecting her opponents or talking about their physical issues will be indirectly disrespecting Steffi.
Agree that whether Seles grunted or not on that particular day, Steffi would have still won as she was the better player during the whole tournament and Seles spent all her energy beating Martina in a tough SF match. And if I can side track here, even from destiny stand point (if anyone believes in one), couldn't expect a different winner on the day when her future hubby would win his first GS ever
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Old Feb 5th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #1918
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleção82 View Post
[size="4"]In an interview with the Süddeutsche Zeitung, you have said that Peter Graf encouraged his daughter Steffi to lose on purpose in the Olympic Doubles semi-final in 1988. How do you get to this accusation?

I've just described what my stepfather told me back then what Peter Graf said to him after the match. I haven't rated it. I do not think that my step-father invented this story. I just wanted to show Peter Graf how he really is. The journalists of that time and all those who participated in the tennis circuit know that too. That was not the only thing he has said. I see this from a distance and even have to smile about it now. It's been almost 25 years ago. Steffi would never lose on purpose. I would now never say anything bad about Steffi. We always got along well together. She was one of the greatest athletes that Germany ever had. We will have to wait a long time until such a player comes again.
Nice to see that CKK said this about Steffi and highlighted that her beef was mainly with Peter. While it does seem like she backtracked on what she had previously said, I also think it could be that something she said was taken out of context? I know that media has a tendency to exaggerate things to sensationalize things and create drama. In any case, at least CKK closed this issue with Steffi in a positive way.
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Old Feb 5th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #1919
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef-fan View Post
Agree that whether Seles grunted or not on that particular day, Steffi would have still won as she was the better player during the whole tournament and Seles spent all her energy beating Martina in a tough SF match. And if I can side track here, even from destiny stand point (if anyone believes in one), couldn't expect a different winner on the day when her future hubby would win his first GS ever
LOL about the destiny thing. I too think that Steffi would've beaten Monica that day even if Monica grunted. I do think Monica would've won more than 3 games although I think Steffi would still have won in straight sets. (Maybe the scoreline would've been 3 and 4 instead, who knows?)
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Old Feb 5th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #1920
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

I ignored that grunting could make you run faster, interesting

CKK statement out of context, I doubt it. She said what Peter said and that she herself realised during this SF that Steffi's backhand was bad that day, what does it suggest ?
Now bla bla we get along well. I thought "people (were) are not her thing".
I am just too happy about the last sentence of her last itw :

What were the reactions to your criticism of Steffi and her father?
Peter Graf has only said that he did not say it. What else should he say? Otherwise there were hardly any responses. The interview was primarily about something else.

So no reaction from Steffi not worthy, love her.
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