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Old Jan 7th, 2012, 09:08 PM   #1846
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by XTN View Post
(Hope you don't mind someone else weighing in on this conversation...) I'm not a tennis expert but I think that in her best years, when she was on, she hit with such incredible abandon but in the latter stages, she was a lot more, hmm, resilient for lack of a better term. It was interesting to watch Graf steamroll her opponents early in her career because she looked like a genius with a tennis racquet who could do anything with the ball. She even hit topspin backhands as a rally shot and could pass anyone at will with her backhand. In the latter stages of her career, I felt it was so much easier to put pressure on her backhand (although maybe that is also because people just started hitting harder and getting Graf out of position a lot more). I do think she hit a lot more unforced errors in her earlier years.

However, as you have also suggested, her forehand became a much better rallying shot later in her career and she started moving the ball around better. I feel that 1994 may have been one of the biggest turning points in her career. At that time, she lost every tough match she had against ASV and got blown off the court twice by Mary Pierce. Her resolve in tough matches against difficult opponents and her ability to rebound against people who were hitting exceedingly hard off both wings were put into question. But maybe her back problems that nearly ended her career provided some perspective. All of a sudden, in 1995, ASV couldn't beat her anymore after that, even in very tough matches (Wimbledon, French Open). Maybe her experiences playing Pierce helped her develop an ability to hang in there when her opponent seemed to be blowing her away. She had a few matches against Lindsay Davenport where Lindsay racked up 4-5 games in a row but Steffi managed to steady herself and get through. She also lost to Seles 1-6 in the first set of the 1998 year-end championships but somehow managed to get the ball back in a lot more and got through that one as well.

(I sort of think that in 1994, Graf may have felt - even subconsciously - that the only player who could arguably outhit her was Seles. So when she ran into Pierce in the FO, it is possible that her pride - or refusal to accept that anyone could hit harder than her - prevented her from adjusting her game to the situation or slowing down and trying to make a better match out of it. That she remained incredibly competitive against Davenport, Seles, and both Williams sisters very late in her career when her body was already battered may have been a consequence of the realization in late 1994 that she needed to play smarter and hang tougher against these players who could hit her off the court. True enough, she beat Pierce very convincingly early in 1995.)
This is a good post. I agree that Steffi changed her game post-1994. Whether is was due to her back, losing to Pierce or just learning to play smarter, she actually became much less aggressive in her matches and ground opponents down much more. If you look at Steffi's play in 1989 she just blasted her way through everyone. From 1990 to 1993/4 she was just so impatient. The errors that would flow from her racquet were just painful to watch. Then from 1995 she learned the art of holding back' and playing within herself, of which there is no better example than the 1999 French Open final against Hingis.
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Old Jan 7th, 2012, 09:10 PM   #1847
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by newmark401 View Post
Claudia Kohde-Kilsch does sound rather bitter in that interview published in the "Sueddeutsche Zeitung" magazine section on December 15, 2011, but perhaps it's understandable because her stepfather, Juergen, did her out of so much money and she is now effectively bankrupt and working for a real estate company. Her stepfather appears to have seen her as the goose who could lay a golden egg, in other words, provide money for the whole family whenever it was required, for a house in Marbella, skiing holidays, Claudia's sister's education, etc. (She calls him her father in the interview. He was a lawyer and died in 2004. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch declared herself bankrupt in 2011.)

As for Claudia's relationship (as such) with Steffi Graf, here is what Claudia says in the interview:

[...]

Interviewer: Steffi Graf had a similar set-up in her family. She, too, had a dominant father who managed her money. However, Peter Graf betrayed not his daughter, but the tax authorities, which is why he had to go to prison in the 1990s. Did you have any sympathy at the time?

Claudia Kohde-Kilsch: No, I wasn't sorry for Steffi. Of course, it was tough for her that her father was put behind bars, but I don't think anyone needs to feel sorry for Steffi. She's as hard as nails. I first got to know her when she was twelve. At that time she was already very ambitious. Very focussed. A bit shy around people. A grown-up girl. We had fun times only in the beginning. My mother and I took her under our wings because her parents hadn't yet begun to accompany her on the tour. But the good relationship was soon ruined by Peter Graf.

Interviewer: Peter Graf did not have the best reputation in the tennis world.

CKK: Rightly so. He caused only trouble. My father once almost came to blows with him.

Interviewer: How do you mean?

CKK: It was in 1986, during the Masters tournament in Madison Square Garden in New York. Helena Sukova and I had just dared to beat Steffi and Gabriela Sabatini in the doubles event. Afterwards old man Graf met my father in the corridor and said to him, we had been been very lucky and so on. My father grabbed him by the collar, pushed him against the wall and said to him, he should keep his trap shut. And while this was happening, Chris Evert and Pam Shriver, both top ten players at the time, were standing nearby, gossiping! No one could stand Peter Graf.

Interviewer: But you and Steffi did nevertheless play a lot of doubles matches together, even winning the Federation Cup and a silver medal at the Olympic Games as a team. How was that possible?

CKK: At certain times we did get along quite well with each other, but the Olympic Games is another story. Steffi had already won the gold medal in the singles event when we played our doubles semi-final. And I was amazed that Steffi was hitting over her backhand the whole time. Normally she always played a sliced backhand, which she could do marvellously. After we had lost, my father asked Steffi's father why she kept hitting through her backhand. Peter Graf only said, What, do you think Claudia deserved a gold medal too?

Interviewer: Do you believe Peter Graf had told Steffi to play especially badly?

CKK: Naturally I can't prove that. But it was very strange indeed. And not untypical of a family from whom you could expect anything. Peter Graf even made Adidas, for years my sponsor, make a choice, saying, If you continue to sponsor Claudia, you won't be allowed to sponsor Steffi anymore. I can't prove that either, but a representative from Adidas said that to my father in so many words. Adidas did then drop me, after many years of a partnership. That meant that I had no sponsor during the last two or three years of my career. I had to buy the clothes myself and have CKK knitted into them. Martina Navratilova sent me the socks.

[...]

Interviewer: When Steffi Graf joined the professional ranks, you were the German number one. You were chosen as German female tennis player of the year in 1985 and came second in the vote for German sports star of the year. Then along came Steffi Graf. From then on you had to stand in the shadow of Steffi and Boris [Becker]. How annoying was that?

CKK: It's hard when you stop being successful, it's very annoying. But the two of them were the superstars, and you have to look at what they achieved without envy.

Interviewer: Have you met Steffi Graf since you stopped playing tennis?

CKK: Once. At the end of the 1990s, we both played a bit more tennis, in the German league. Steffi played for Ludwigshafen, I played for Saarlouis. When I entered the clubhouse in Ludwigshafen, Steffi was sitting somewhere at the table, and I thought we'd have a bit of a chat. I said, Hi, Steffi, and she just pushed her hair sideways towards her face and murmured something. I thought, What's that supposed to mean? But that's what Steffi's like, people are not her thing.
-----

CKK sounds like an 80s Patty Schnyder.
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Old Jan 7th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #1848
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by calico_101 View Post
CKK sounds like an 80s Patty Schnyder.
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Old Jan 9th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #1849
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by newmark401 View Post
Claudia Kohde-Kilsch does sound rather bitter in that interview published in the "Sueddeutsche Zeitung" magazine section on December 15, 2011, but perhaps it's understandable because her stepfather, Juergen, did her out of so much money and she is now effectively bankrupt and working for a real estate company. Her stepfather appears to have seen her as the goose who could lay a golden egg, in other words, provide money for the whole family whenever it was required, for a house in Marbella, skiing holidays, Claudia's sister's education, etc. (She calls him her father in the interview. He was a lawyer and died in 2004. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch declared herself bankrupt in 2011.)

As for Claudia's relationship (as such) with Steffi Graf, here is what Claudia says in the interview:

[...]

Interviewer: Steffi Graf had a similar set-up in her family. She, too, had a dominant father who managed her money. However, Peter Graf betrayed not his daughter, but the tax authorities, which is why he had to go to prison in the 1990s. Did you have any sympathy at the time?

Claudia Kohde-Kilsch: No, I wasn't sorry for Steffi. Of course, it was tough for her that her father was put behind bars, but I don't think anyone needs to feel sorry for Steffi. She's as hard as nails. I first got to know her when she was twelve. At that time she was already very ambitious. Very focussed. A bit shy around people. A grown-up girl. We had fun times only in the beginning. My mother and I took her under our wings because her parents hadn't yet begun to accompany her on the tour. But the good relationship was soon ruined by Peter Graf.

Interviewer: Peter Graf did not have the best reputation in the tennis world.

CKK: Rightly so. He caused only trouble. My father once almost came to blows with him.

Interviewer: How do you mean?

CKK: It was in 1986, during the Masters tournament in Madison Square Garden in New York. Helena Sukova and I had just dared to beat Steffi and Gabriela Sabatini in the doubles event. Afterwards old man Graf met my father in the corridor and said to him, we had been been very lucky and so on. My father grabbed him by the collar, pushed him against the wall and said to him, he should keep his trap shut. And while this was happening, Chris Evert and Pam Shriver, both top ten players at the time, were standing nearby, gossiping! No one could stand Peter Graf.

Interviewer: But you and Steffi did nevertheless play a lot of doubles matches together, even winning the Federation Cup and a silver medal at the Olympic Games as a team. How was that possible?

CKK: At certain times we did get along quite well with each other, but the Olympic Games is another story. Steffi had already won the gold medal in the singles event when we played our doubles semi-final. And I was amazed that Steffi was hitting over her backhand the whole time. Normally she always played a sliced backhand, which she could do marvellously. After we had lost, my father asked Steffi's father why she kept hitting through her backhand. Peter Graf only said, What, do you think Claudia deserved a gold medal too?

Interviewer: Do you believe Peter Graf had told Steffi to play especially badly?

CKK: Naturally I can't prove that. But it was very strange indeed. And not untypical of a family from whom you could expect anything. Peter Graf even made Adidas, for years my sponsor, make a choice, saying, If you continue to sponsor Claudia, you won't be allowed to sponsor Steffi anymore. I can't prove that either, but a representative from Adidas said that to my father in so many words. Adidas did then drop me, after many years of a partnership. That meant that I had no sponsor during the last two or three years of my career. I had to buy the clothes myself and have CKK knitted into them. Martina Navratilova sent me the socks.

[...]

Interviewer: When Steffi Graf joined the professional ranks, you were the German number one. You were chosen as German female tennis player of the year in 1985 and came second in the vote for German sports star of the year. Then along came Steffi Graf. From then on you had to stand in the shadow of Steffi and Boris [Becker]. How annoying was that?

CKK: It's hard when you stop being successful, it's very annoying. But the two of them were the superstars, and you have to look at what they achieved without envy.

Interviewer: Have you met Steffi Graf since you stopped playing tennis?

CKK: Once. At the end of the 1990s, we both played a bit more tennis, in the German league. Steffi played for Ludwigshafen, I played for Saarlouis. When I entered the clubhouse in Ludwigshafen, Steffi was sitting somewhere at the table, and I thought we'd have a bit of a chat. I said, Hi, Steffi, and she just pushed her hair sideways towards her face and murmured something. I thought, What's that supposed to mean? But that's what Steffi's like, people are not her thing.
-----
Well, no one can prove a lot of things, for instance what Peter Graf allegedely told Claudia's father after the Olympics, but it's quite strange to speak about this stuff and similar now, when she's in all this financial trouble. Maybe Claudia had kept all this to herself all these years and finalley decided to tell the world, but her bitterness made her words not too much believable, she sounds so resentful and full of envy that you can't give her too much credit I think. And if Steffi behaved like that with her hair and her muttered words, she must have her reasons probably; I know it's quite a different scenario here, but Graf looks like people it's not so much not her thing as Claudia says, and BTW I LOVE this picture, it's so fresh!

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Old Jan 9th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #1850
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Love this pic too ^^

CKK has no proof for what she said, don't look back at her own performance (isn't she afterall the double specialist) and disrespect her SF opponents. And yeah perhaps CKK isn't her thing, not people lol.
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Old Jan 9th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #1851
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by gabybackhand View Post
Well, no one can prove a lot of things, for instance what Peter Graf allegedely told Claudia's father after the Olympics, but it's quite strange to speak about this stuff and similar now, when she's in all this financial trouble. Maybe Claudia had kept all this to herself all these years and finalley decided to tell the world, but her bitterness made her words not too much believable, she sounds so resentful and full of envy that you can't give her too much credit I think. And if Steffi behaved like that with her hair and her muttered words, she must have her reasons probably; I know it's quite a different scenario here, but Graf looks like people it's not so much not her thing as Claudia says, and BTW I LOVE this picture, it's so fresh!

That's really a nice pic! Thanks for posting!

About the interview: I wouldn't be much surprised if Peter Graf indeed was a greedy schemer, maybe there is some truth in it what CKK says about him. But Steffi a cold and calculating person, with people not being her thing? Should we really have been mistaken that much? Hard to believe.

About CKK: there isn't much I can say. Back in the day I did not know what to think of her, whether I like her or not. I wasn't much interested in what she did. And today it's the same.
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Old Jan 9th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #1852
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by Seleção82 View Post
That's really a nice pic! Thanks for posting!

About the interview: I wouldn't be much surprised if Peter Graf indeed was a greedy schemer, maybe there is some truth in it what CKK says about him. But Steffi a cold and calculating person, with people not being her thing? Should we really have been mistaken that much? Hard to believe.

About CKK: there isn't much I can say. Back in the day I did not know what to think of her, whether I like her or not. I wasn't much interested in what she did. And today it's the same.
About him, sure, I even didn't doubt he said what she reported him to have said (that she doesn't need gold or something), but saying it doesn't mean he asked his daughter to lose on purpose, and even if, would she have done it ? I doubt.
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Old Jan 10th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #1853
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

I watched the singles ceremony on you tube and the commentator claims that Garrison already won gold in doubles. considering that Steffi and Sabatini are both in their tennisskirts I am pretty sure that the ceremony was held straight after the final. How could Steffi still have to play a semi in doubles when Garrison (Shriver) already won gold?

So my hint to Claudia Kilsch is, if you want to bash somebody at least take care that the facts are right
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Old Jan 10th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #1854
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

I am sure now that the doubles final was on 30 september 1988 while the singles final was on 1 oktober 1988! So when Steffi and Kohde Kilsch played their semi in doubles Steffi didn't have any gold yet. (except the exhibition one from 1984 of course)

So Claudia Kohde Kilsch was just talking crap!
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Old Jan 10th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #1855
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

Thanks Irma!

So the case is closed.
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Old Jan 10th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #1856
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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I am sure now that the doubles final was on 30 september 1988 while the singles final was on 1 oktober 1988! So when Steffi and Kohde Kilsch played their semi in doubles Steffi didn't have any gold yet. (except the exhibition one from 1984 of course)

So Claudia Kohde Kilsch was just talking crap!
Irma.

CKK is just a bitter person.
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Old Jan 10th, 2012, 09:58 PM   #1857
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Originally Posted by irma View Post
I am sure now that the doubles final was on 30 september 1988 while the singles final was on 1 oktober 1988! So when Steffi and Kohde Kilsch played their semi in doubles Steffi didn't have any gold yet. (except the exhibition one from 1984 of course)

So Claudia Kohde Kilsch was just talking crap!
Right Irma, found this link which gives you the dates when each SF and finals were played and you realize that Steffi wasn't even sure of even winning a medal before she lost the doubles SF match, forget about gold.
Women's doubles SF were on Sep 28th.
Women's single SF matches were on Sep 29th.

http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...mi-finals.html
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Old Jan 12th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #1858
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Hi everybody, does anybody know if I can purchase the Taiwan exhibition online? I know they start selling tickets today but cant seem to find it on internet. The only one I could find is through www.integrationsports.com but it's all in Chinese!

Anybody lives in Taiwan??

Pls help!
Hi tennisfan,

i 've got the files from friends about instructions and application form for the TW event's ticket purchase, hope they would help you

here is the link, http://www.rayfile.com/files/5f2832c...-0015c55db73d/
i guess this webpage has a english version, but if you have any problem about downloading, just send me a message.
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Old Jan 12th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #1859
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Old Jan 17th, 2012, 07:37 AM   #1860
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Re: Steffi Graf Admiration Thread Vol 2

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Hi tennisfan,

i 've got the files from friends about instructions and application form for the TW event's ticket purchase, hope they would help you

here is the link, http://www.rayfile.com/files/5f2832c...-0015c55db73d/
i guess this webpage has a english version, but if you have any problem about downloading, just send me a message.
Hi steffiandbibi! Thanks so much.
I managed to get in touch with someone from Integration Sports in Taiwan so I'm getting a ticket from them.
Will you be going too?
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