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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 07:52 AM   #46
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Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
And as for King being weak on clay-that's a fact. Her head to head vs top players on dirt is atrocious. She NEVER beat Evert on clay and a win vs. Court, Turner, or Richey on clay was rare. Quarterfinal results are meaningless IMO at this level-you either win or you don't. I give credit to Billie Jean for winning a French (she did what Seles couldn't for example) but lets face it, this is BJK's one obvious area of weakness. It's what makes Court marginally better, even if we argue over how big or small the margin is.
On clay:
King 1, Court 0
Turner Bowrey 1, King 0
King 5, Richey 1
Evert 6, King 0
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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 08:35 AM   #47
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
On clay:
King 1, Court 0
Turner Bowrey 1, King 0
King 5, Richey 1
Evert 6, King 0
The stat against Court on clay is astonishing in that they were two of the top players in the world from the mid 60s until the mid 70s. I know Margaret played most of the big clay court events so it is just incredible that they only met once on clay in all that time. Did King lose earlier rounds or not play most of these bigger events (French, German etc)?

Court's record on clay is pretty amazing and she was the top dog on the surface during the 60s and early 70s despite the incredible clay court talent in Turner, Jones, Richey et all to contend with.
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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 09:41 AM   #48
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Re: Margaret Court's record

I have posted BJK's career singles matches in the Billie Jean Moffitt King thread, along with surface information.

You also might be interested in these two posts:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost....&postcount=154
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost....&postcount=161
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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 09:48 AM   #49
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Re: Margaret Court's record

On clay:
King 4, Haydon Jones 2

So, King was 10-10 on clay against Turner Bowrey, Court, Richey, Haydon Jones, and Evert. Excluding Chris, King was 10-4. Not bad for someone whose clay court prowess is routinely denigrated.

Also on clay:
King 1, Goolagong Cawley 0
King 4, Melville Reid 1
King 3, Durr 3
King 3, Wade 2
King 4, Niessen Masthoff 3

Last edited by austinrunner : Jul 15th, 2010 at 10:08 AM.
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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 01:26 PM   #50
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
On clay:
King 4, Haydon Jones 2

So, King was 10-10 on clay against Turner Bowrey, Court, Richey, Haydon Jones, and Evert. Excluding Chris, King was 10-4. Not bad for someone whose clay court prowess is routinely denigrated.

Also on clay:
King 1, Goolagong Cawley 0
King 4, Melville Reid 1
King 3, Durr 3
King 3, Wade 2
King 4, Niessen Masthoff 3
They are solid figures for King. A nice surprise. Not sure who has denigrated her on clay though.

It would be interesting to know what the clay court H2Hs were for Turner, Jones, Court, Evert and Richey. These 5 ladies dominated the French Open and major clay court events during King's era. So to compare their H2H clay court records and results in the big ones would be more meaningful.
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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #51
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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They are solid figures for King. A nice surprise. Not sure who has denigrated her on clay though.

It would be interesting to know what the clay court H2Hs were for Turner, Jones, Court, Evert and Richey. These 5 ladies dominated the French Open and major clay court events during King's era. So to compare their H2H clay court records and results in the big ones would be more meaningful.
I know Lesley led Ann Jones 5-2 on clay. All her 5 victories came before 1965. Mrs Jones won their two meetings after 1966.

Are the clay courts in America (Chicago, Cleveland etc) the same as European clay? I'm wondering if maybe some courts designated as clay differ from the red ones of RG, Foro Italico and Bournemouth.

Berlin, for example, is classified as clay but as Nancy has told us it is actually a strange pebbled court.
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Old Jul 15th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #52
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
I know Lesley led Ann Jones 5-2 on clay. All her 5 victories came before 1965. Mrs Jones won their two meetings after 1966.

Are the clay courts in America (Chicago, Cleveland etc) the same as European clay? I'm wondering if maybe some courts designated as clay differ from the red ones of RG, Foro Italico and Bournemouth.

Berlin, for example, is classified as clay but as Nancy has told us it is actually a strange pebbled court.
Not sure about American clay. I know the Australian clay (really dirt) is faster than the European clay.
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Old Jul 16th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #53
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
I know Lesley led Ann Jones 5-2 on clay. All her 5 victories came before 1965. Mrs Jones won their two meetings after 1966.

Are the clay courts in America (Chicago, Cleveland etc) the same as European clay? I'm wondering if maybe some courts designated as clay differ from the red ones of RG, Foro Italico and Bournemouth.

Berlin, for example, is classified as clay but as Nancy has told us it is actually a strange pebbled court.

Actually make that 6-2!!
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Old Jul 16th, 2010, 11:31 AM   #54
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Actually make that 6-2!!
Shows how great Turner was on clay before 66. Considering she won 2 French titles and almost pipped Margaret in a 3rd during her hot run is very impressive.

Had they have had 2 grass court slams, and either two on clay (or one on clay and one on hardcourt) Lesley could have made an even bigger mark on the world stage. Turner, Jones and Richey more than any other players in history were severely disadvantaged by the 3 grasscourt slams of the pre-74 era. Of course they still had Court, King and Bueno to contend with, but surely could have added to their own legacy had there been more of a balance.
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Old Jul 16th, 2010, 05:42 PM   #55
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Re: Margaret Court's record

Interesting and maybe can explain some of what seem strange statistics - I asked Nancy in her career thread were the American clay courts different from the European ones and this is her answer:

"yes, our clay is quite different from the European red stuff...it is quite a bit faster..."
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Old Jul 16th, 2010, 06:09 PM   #56
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
And as for King being weak on clay-that's a fact. Her head to head vs top players on dirt is atrocious. She NEVER beat Evert on clay and a win vs. Court, Turner, or Richey on clay was rare. Quarterfinal results are meaningless IMO at this level-you either win or you don't. I give credit to Billie Jean for winning a French (she did what Seles couldn't for example) but lets face it, this is BJK's one obvious area of weakness. It's what makes Court marginally better, even if we argue over how big or small the margin is.

On clay:
King 1, Court 0
Turner Bowrey 1, King 0
King 5, Richey 1
Evert 6, King 0
Hi AustinRunner-great work on Billie Jean's record, and there is no doubt I was 100% wrong when it comes to her her head to heads on clay vs some top players.

I stand by my statement that King was weak on clay though. Relatively speaking she was much more dangerous on faster surfaces, just as Evert was stronger on clay.
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Old Jul 16th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #57
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Quote:
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I can save you time looking in King's bio, your memory is right and King DOES say the USTA prevented her from playing the French AND the post Wimby Euroclay events. The problem is the facts just don't bear out King's assertion. ... Like I say, she couldn't have entered the French until 1965 at the earliest due to college finals-and in 1965 and 1966 she was in Europe and on grass the same week as the French at Surbiton.

Actually, BJK was in Tulsa, Oklahoma playing a clay court tournament when the French Championships was going on in 1966.
Pretty amazing stuff! So she went from playing Fed Cup in Italy, to California on hard courts, to Tulsa on clay, and back to Europe on grass.

It puts a whole new spin on 1966. Of course it doesn't change the fact that she dodged the French in 1966 unless the USTA forced her to go back to the US. and I highly doubt that was the case. Nancy Richey, Carole Graebner, and Julie Heldman were aslo in Europe during or before the Fed Cup, and none of them went home.

So why did she go back to the US and skip the French?

1. She was forced back by the USTA. If this is the case why wern't the others?
2. She wanted go back to home and her new husband.
3. She hated clay.
4. The USTA gave her a nice fat guarentee to play minor events and she needed the money to help
pay bills.
5. Wimbledon was priority #1.

It could have been any or a combo of all those factors. And having never won Wimbledon I think it makes sense that she skipped Paris as her fellow Californians had before her-both Helen Wills (on her return to Europe in 1927) and Maureen Connolly skipped Paris until winning the big W.

Viewed in that light it makes sense to me the BJK passed on the red clay.

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Old Jul 17th, 2010, 02:17 AM   #58
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
I stand by my statement that King was weak on clay though. Relatively speaking she was much more dangerous on faster surfaces, just as Evert was stronger on clay.
I agree that clay was King's weakest surface. But she was very, very good on clay, as her head-to-head records against everyone but Evert show.
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Old Jul 17th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #59
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Re: Margaret Court's record

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Pretty amazing stuff! So she went from playing Fed Cup in Italy, to California on hard courts, to Tulsa on clay, and back to Europe on grass.

It puts a whole new spin on 1966. Of course it doesn't change the fact that she dodged the French in 1966 unless the USTA forced her to go back to the US. and I highly doubt that was the case. Nancy Richey, Carole Graebner, and Julie Heldman were aslo in Europe during or before the Fed Cup, and none of them went home.

So why did she go back to the US and skip the French?

1. She was forced back by the USTA. If this is the case why wern't the others?
2. She wanted go back to home and her new husband.
3. She hated clay.
4. The USTA gave her a nice fat guarentee to play minor events and she needed the money to help
pay bills.
5. Wimbledon was priority #1.

It could have been any or a combo of all those factors. And having never won Wimbledon I think it makes sense that she skipped Paris as her fellow Californians had before her-both Helen Wills (on her return to Europe in 1927) and Maureen Connolly skipped Paris until winning the big W.

Viewed in that light it makes sense to me the BJK passed on the red clay.

I would be highly sceptical the USTA would have forced her to miss RG. As you say why wouldn't the other players have been too?

I believe I asked Nancy about this once and she was unaware of any such situation.

Although it is a fact that the LTA tried to prevent Ann Jones competing there in 1966 and only a threat by her to defy them forced them to cave in (in essence come to their senses). They wanted her to play minor English grass events to get practise for the Wightman Cup.

It seems hard to believe today that players once had to get permission from their Association to play abroad.

You could though almost say the USTA forced the players to miss the German Championships since the criteria for obtaining an American ranking almost made it obligatory to play the Eastern Grass Court event leading up to Forest Hills which is why few if any Americans played in Hamburg.
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Old Jul 17th, 2010, 03:18 PM   #60
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Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
I agree that clay was King's weakest surface. But she was very, very good on clay, as her head-to-head records against everyone but Evert show.
Your research into King's record has given us all more respect for her clay capabilities. With Billie Jean one has to wonder if she could have racked up a lot more titles had conditions been different for her-not attending college, getting more clay tournaments under her belt, etc.

And she played the French from 1967-70 and again in 1972. When she skipped it in 1971 she was powering the Slims circuit. This is probably also true in 1973. Then from 1974 it was WTT.

Surface-wise Margaret Court had a better background for clay, which was common in Australia.
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