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Old Jul 24th, 2003, 04:31 PM   #16
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nav and steffi didn't do three

steffi because she was injured and nav(personal problems?)

and court?
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Old Jul 24th, 2003, 04:32 PM   #17
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evert?
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Old Jul 24th, 2003, 06:03 PM   #18
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LOL. You hit it on the head with Evert Irma

I tried to scan a pic of Margaret in an ad for Princess Barbell weights, but the pic quality was poor.
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Old Jul 25th, 2003, 11:26 AM   #19
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Irma, just toying with you, and giving a plug for my fave, who often is regarded as a distant 4th in these types of discussions........
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Old Jul 26th, 2003, 01:57 PM   #20
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Macn

I feel that Billie-Jean was able to improve on her record against Court between 66 and 73 largely due to 2 factors:

1 - Billie-Jean improved her game markedly after a long stint of training in Australia in 65/66, and

2 - Margaret Court retired for over 12 months from 1966 so it took her a while to get back to form. Margaret also retired to have a child in 1971 and once again it took her some time to get back to form. But in 1973 she was in devastating form once more, taking 3 of the Slams and Semi-Finalist at Wimbledon.

Rollo hit the mark perfectly when he said that about half of Margaret's Aussie Open wins included a number of the world's top players eg. Hard, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Richey etc. And the other half of her win still featured some top tenners etc. So you can't discredit these titles. Margaret beat many great players to win the Aussie Open titles.
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Old Jul 26th, 2003, 04:00 PM   #21
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It would have been great if Billie Jean, Maria Bueno, and Margaret were all healthy at the same time. Poor Bueno got the worst of it IMO with all her related injuries. I think King had the first of her six knee operations, which must have hurt her a lot in the 1969 season.

Tennisvideos-do you have suggestions of specific matches if we want to get one or two matches of these 3 vs each other on tape?
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Old Jul 26th, 2003, 06:25 PM   #22
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I have to say that Rev. Mags makes a pretty good argument for herself as the all time best. She is not as famous as others, but in terms of sheer consistancy AND dominance she is pretty much unparalleled IMO.

Chrissie had the consistancy but never was consistantly dominant, at least at the GS's. This could've been different had she played the AO and the French more in the mid '70's when she was as close to dominating as she would ever be.

Martina dominated but there are too many holes in her career as far as I see-the years '73-'77, '80, '88, '89 were all awash in terms of consistancy at the GS's which, like it or not must be factored in (as much as I love Chrissie, she never won more than two Slams a year in her entire career which makes it difficult to argue that she ever really dominated, '76 excluded-whereas Tini twice won 3 majors in a year and at one point won six straight-Chris only won 3 straight at a point in her career '82-'83 that nobody would say that she was dominating the game).

Sorry folks, I think Steffi is the all time number two, but I can no longer truly say she was the best because the Seles factor is just too VITAL. Steffi won 6 of the 10 GS' played in Monica's absence.


And as other's have already said the Seles factor does not equate Rev. Mags' AO factor. Too many great women were coming out of Australia at the time and Bueno played there occasionally as well. Rev. Mags won her AO titles during the Apex of Australian tennis. To my mind there is no comparison.

People argue about Steffi's injuries that kept her out of certain events. Um...twice Mags left the sport for extensive period of times and came back to dominate.

I'm babbling on and on...

Oh yeah, what about Wills? 19 GS titles without ever playing the AO? Only occasionally playing the French, never playing the U.S. after the Helen Jacobs incident, and skipping Wimby several times in the mid '30's. Now there's some impressive numbers for ya!
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Old Jul 28th, 2003, 03:23 AM   #23
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I agree to a point Tennisvideos, The argument could be made that Margaret beat Billie Jean 14 straight tiems was because King hadn't taken Tennis as serious until 1965. Bueno, Hard and King didn't play the Australian Open that often, King only played 3 times during her prime. Hard and Bueno only played once or twice. Margaret beat Jan Lehane in about 20 finals! LOL!!!!!!!!!! I don't discount margaret's Austalian opens, but the argument has to be made that the competition wasn't as strong as Wimbledon and the U.S. Open where Margaret had to play the best players. I know that Margaret hat the layoffs and had to regain her form, but think about King who campaigned for women's tennis with board meetings, sponsor meetings, clinics, exibitions, and a variety of other things. She had to be tried after all of that. Chris Evert has stated when she beat King in a final one year how easy it was until she found out that King was in another city promoting Women's Tennis and had just returned to that tournament 1 hour before the match. I often wonder as Steve Flink has pointed out, If King had dedicated herself just to tennis, she probably would have won many more titles.
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Old Jul 28th, 2003, 08:29 AM   #24
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Pam,

Chris was actually going for a Chrissy slam at Winbeldon 83, after holding the 82 USO, 82 AO, & 83 FO. You are technically right though, she never held more than 2 in a calendar year, but as you point out she never bothered to play the AO until 81, and didn't play all of the FO in the 70s.
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Old Jul 28th, 2003, 08:31 AM   #25
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Apologies, I just reread you post properly, where you point out that she did hold 3 in a row........
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Old Jul 28th, 2003, 04:33 PM   #26
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Macn-the problem with saying BJK could have won a lot more slams had she not promoted the tour comes down to two things.

1. We're talking 1971-74. Those were the years when King heavily promoted the women's tour. They were also the years King performed her best in grand slams, the exception being 1973. What else could she have won in those years?

2. It WAS BJK's choice, just as Court made the choice to take time off, retire, and have kids. And it wasn't just for the love of tennis. King's husband Larry promoted many events and the exposure secured endorsements for Billie Jean.

One of King's errors in hindsight was retiring after winning Wimbledon in 1975. She might have been good enough to win in 1976. After 1977 the age and knees caught up to her.

Take away the Aussie entiely and Court has still has 13 slams to King's 11. That's a close total, but perhaps more accurate than 24 to 12. The difference all comes down to clay. Mags could win on it while King was often a sitting duck at the French.
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Old Jul 28th, 2003, 04:40 PM   #27
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I thought those excuses did not count

how many slams could steffi have won in new york in the early ninties if she didn't had a bf who happened to live there (well that's bf thing is true confirmed by steffi if that was the reason that she played so crap especially there in that period because of that is me making excuses)
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Old Jul 29th, 2003, 03:52 AM   #28
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Rollo, let's not forget that King only played the Australian Open 3 times during her prime and as far as King being a sitting duck at the French I have to disagree. She only played the French 5 times during her prime and made the quarters or better in each tournament winning in 1972. King has won every major clay court tournament. The two major tournaments of the yesteryears were the U.S. Open and Wimbledon. Wimbledon was seen as the end all of tournaments and the U.S. Open was second. The U.S. Federation wouldn't allow King to play the French until 1967 because they wanted her to promote their grass court tournaments in the states. King mostly prevailed in the most important times. If you count the total Court has 8 Wimbledons and U.S. Open titles to King's 10. Court's record should never be discounted and I give her the #2 or #3 player of all time in my book because she played year in and year out and won soooooo many tournaments in singles and in doubles. If I had to pick someone to play for all the marbles in a pressure situation I would pick King.
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Old Jul 29th, 2003, 11:40 AM   #29
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I have to point out that my all-time favorite, Chris Evert, did lose an Aussie Open final in 1974 to Evonne Goolagong (another favorite).

I really wish that Chris played more in the 70s at both Aus and especially the French. I figure she would have swept 76 through 78 on the clay and probably would have snagged at least one Australian on the grass.

I know that in those days a top player did what the competition did, but what a chance for more grand slam trophies.
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Old Jul 29th, 2003, 03:01 PM   #30
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[quote=Rollo]Marge had a big tendency to choke at Wimbledon, where Tinling said she "saw invisible vultures overhead on center court".

I believe Teddy Tinling said this of Martina Navratilova's loss to Steffi Graf in the 1989 U.S. Open Final, and his exact quote was "Martina saw vultures that nobody else could see that day", after Martina blew a set and 4-2 lead over Graf.
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