Rules thread - 2013 - Page 5 - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Jul 20th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #61
country flag Håkon
Senior Member
 
Håkon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Bonn, NRW
Posts: 17,213
Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ma re View Post
I'm not crazy about this suggestion. First of all, does that leave out those who finish between 9th and 12th? If it doesn't, how much do they get - half of 90 or half of 70 (now they're getting 30)? And second of all, it would mean that the runner-up would be the only one who wouldn't benefit from the changes; the winner gets a wild-card into a YEC and all other bonus point winners get an increase.
What I meant was the 4th place gets a decrease - so it'd be

1st: 160
2nd: 120
3rd: 90
4th: 70
5th-8th: 60
9th-12th: 40

9th-12th get 40 because it's half of 80, which is still the average for 3rd-4th.
__________________
My twitter | FWTT: Cornelia du Preez
game wins: FITD US Open '12, Guangzhou '10 (#1 since 8 July 2013), TT Indian Wells '11, TT doubles Moskva '11, Brussel '12, Pattaya '13, Stuttgart '13 (w/Andreas), PAW 4 titles, Suicide Olympic gold + 2 titles, Tipping 3 titles (#1 for 25 weeks, USO Series '12), Q-Ball 7 titles, Blackjack #1 2012, Pentathlon #1 2012 (5 titles)
Азарэнка | Павлюченкова | Arvidsson| Halep | Eikeri | Clijsters | Rus | Van Uytvanck | Watson | Bertens | Superboerin Hogenkamp | Schoofs
Håkon is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Jul 20th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #62
country flag ma re
Senior Member
 
ma re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,900
ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamR03A View Post
What I meant was the 4th place gets a decrease - so it'd be

1st: 160
2nd: 120
3rd: 90
4th: 70
5th-8th: 60
9th-12th: 40

9th-12th get 40 because it's half of 80, which is still the average for 3rd-4th.
I get what you're saying, but don't you think it'd be kind of silly if finishing 4th in a tournament like Brisbane or New Haven would get you more points than doing the same at the Olympics
ma re is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 20th, 2012, 10:19 AM   #63
country flag Håkon
Senior Member
 
Håkon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Bonn, NRW
Posts: 17,213
Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ma re View Post
I get what you're saying, but don't you think it'd be kind of silly if finishing 4th in a tournament like Brisbane or New Haven would get you more points than doing the same at the Olympics
The thought process behind my suggestion was that giving 1st-3rd extra points (1st have chance through extra points through YEC, 2nd and 3rd in the actual rankings) relative to 4th-12th was wrong. I suppose I can see why given that those are the medal positions, but I'm not totally convinced...
__________________
My twitter | FWTT: Cornelia du Preez
game wins: FITD US Open '12, Guangzhou '10 (#1 since 8 July 2013), TT Indian Wells '11, TT doubles Moskva '11, Brussel '12, Pattaya '13, Stuttgart '13 (w/Andreas), PAW 4 titles, Suicide Olympic gold + 2 titles, Tipping 3 titles (#1 for 25 weeks, USO Series '12), Q-Ball 7 titles, Blackjack #1 2012, Pentathlon #1 2012 (5 titles)
Азарэнка | Павлюченкова | Arvidsson| Halep | Eikeri | Clijsters | Rus | Van Uytvanck | Watson | Bertens | Superboerin Hogenkamp | Schoofs
Håkon is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 31st, 2012, 06:43 PM   #64
country flag ma re
Senior Member
 
ma re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,900
ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Since there was talk recently (in another thread) about maybe changing the point distribution for Premier events some time in the future, here's a crazy idea.

Instead of coming up with a way to award different points for different types of Premier events, maybe we should do something to improve the point distribution throughout all three categories of tournaments that we play now.

To explain... At the moment a player can win (bonus included):

- a maximum of 177 points at a 32-draw IS event
- a maximum of 280 points at a 64-draw Premier event
- a maximum of 447 points at a Grand slam.

If we would start counting points differently in some of those categories, we would not only make ties at the end of some tournaments less probable, fluke runs to bonus points by a "correct guess" of a surprise in the final less common, but also give more importance to bigger events.

What I'm proposing is that we keep everything exactly the same only in International series events. But changes would occur in Premiers and Slams. Individual correct picks in Premiers wouldn't start with 1 point (for every correct guess in R1), but with 2, which would make the correct pick in the final worth 7, 8 or 9 points, depending on the draw size. At Grand slams, we would start at 3, so a correct pick in the final would be worth 9 points.

The result would be that with this model a player could win (bonus included):

- a maximum of 177 points at a 32-draw IS event
- a maximum of 343 points at a 64-draw Premier event
- a maximum of 701 point at a Grand slam.

This way, a typical Premier would be worth about twice as much as an IS, while a Slam would be worth twice as much as an average Premier. Currently, an average Premier is worth about 60% more than an International, while a GS is worth about 60% more than a typical Premier. In real tennis, a Slam is worth about 3 times as much as an average Premier and almost 7 times as much as an International.

Of course, I'm not suggesting this for 2012, but starting with 2013.


Anyway, just a thought. I'd like to see your views on the subject
ma re is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 1st, 2012, 01:26 PM   #65
country flag ronim1
Senior Member
 
ronim1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,075
ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ma re View Post
Since there was talk recently (in another thread) about maybe changing the point distribution for Premier events some time in the future, here's a crazy idea.

Instead of coming up with a way to award different points for different types of Premier events, maybe we should do something to improve the point distribution throughout all three categories of tournaments that we play now.

To explain... At the moment a player can win (bonus included):

- a maximum of 177 points at a 32-draw IS event
- a maximum of 280 points at a 64-draw Premier event
- a maximum of 447 points at a Grand slam.

If we would start counting points differently in some of those categories, we would not only make ties at the end of some tournaments less probable, fluke runs to bonus points by a "correct guess" of a surprise in the final less common, but also give more importance to bigger events.

What I'm proposing is that we keep everything exactly the same only in International series events. But changes would occur in Premiers and Slams. Individual correct picks in Premiers wouldn't start with 1 point (for every correct guess in R1), but with 2, which would make the correct pick in the final worth 7, 8 or 9 points, depending on the draw size. At Grand slams, we would start at 3, so a correct pick in the final would be worth 9 points.

The result would be that with this model a player could win (bonus included):

- a maximum of 177 points at a 32-draw IS event
- a maximum of 343 points at a 64-draw Premier event
- a maximum of 701 point at a Grand slam.

This way, a typical Premier would be worth about twice as much as an IS, while a Slam would be worth twice as much as an average Premier. Currently, an average Premier is worth about 60% more than an International, while a GS is worth about 60% more than a typical Premier. In real tennis, a Slam is worth about 3 times as much as an average Premier and almost 7 times as much as an International.

Of course, I'm not suggesting this for 2012, but starting with 2013.


Anyway, just a thought. I'd like to see your views on the subject


This sounds not bad.
Please explain again why you think a change is needed at all?
__________________
2013-Suicidee Tennis:Rank:56 Tipping: Rank: 8 Winner-AEGON Eastbourne;Carlsbad;Linz C-Y-P:Rank: 12 Winner-Florianopolis Pentathlon:Rank: 5 Winner-AUS Open;Florianopolis
2012- Tipping:Winner-Aus Open;London OG C-Y-P: Winner-Miami;Montreal Pentathlon:Winner-Stanford;London OG
2011- Tipping: Winner-Baku
2010- Tipping: Winner-Generali Ladies Linz;
2009 Winner Tipping:
Portoroz;2008 Winner Suicide Tennis: Generali Ladies Linz Tipping: Fortis Luxembourg;Kremlin Cup;Guangzhou;New Haven;OG Beijing;Los Angeles;Rome
ronim1 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 1st, 2012, 01:54 PM   #66
country flag Frederik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,049
Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

I agree with both suggestions ma re (this one and the one in the PM)
Frederik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 1st, 2012, 02:09 PM   #67
country flag ma re
Senior Member
 
ma re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,900
ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronim1 View Post
This sounds not bad.
Please explain again why you think a change is needed at all?
Well, there are several reasons.

The main one would be limiting a chance for "last minute succes" by making a desperate move of picking the underdog for the finals and hoping for a miracle. Such "miracles" sometimes happen (due to injuries, weather interruptions, or simply a bad day on the favorite's side) and people who played great all week end up behind those who didn't play so well but made a bold (or desperate) choice for the final match. By significantly increasing the total number of points a player can receive leading to the finals, you diminish a chance for such occurances.

As I said in the previous post, this could also lead to less ties at the end of tournaments, althought this is purely speculation on my part (I did calculate models for some of the previous tournaments and sometimes it really leads to less ties - could be just a coincidence, though).

And last but certainly not least, it would increase the difference in reward between different categories of tournaments. I really think that the current model is not very good in that regard, because it gives too much importance to small events (or not enough to big ones, how ever you want it). At the moment, a typical IS event gives you around 150 points (bonus included), while winning a slam usually around 400. I think Slams should be worth considerably more than that, considering how dificult it is to win one. This could also lead to less competitive IS tournaments, which could be good for new players, as they'd stand a better chance for a good result early on in their careers.

All in all, I think it would be an improvement, but of course, it won't happen overnight, if it happens at all.
ma re is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 1st, 2012, 06:55 PM   #68
country flag ma re
Senior Member
 
ma re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,900
ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik View Post
I agree with both suggestions ma re (this one and the one in the PM)
Glad to hear it

For those of you who are not into what Fred and I are talking about...we we discussing possible bonus point changes suggested by Fred. His idea is that not all Premier events should get equal bonus points, cause there are Premiers, but also Premier 5 and Premier Mandatory events.

At first I was not happy about this idea, cause I thought it would probably complicate the (bonus) point distribution too much and that managers could have a hard time keeping up with it all. But then it hit me that we could do it the simple way - keeping current bonus (i.e. everything the same) for Premier 5, give standard Premiers 140/105/70/50/35 and go for 180/135/90/65*/45 in Premier Mandatories.

This would give us a total of 5 tournament categories with bonus for winners equalling 120, 140, 160, 180 and 200 points respectively. You can tell us what do you think about that too


* - or 70 to make it 50-60-70 for those who finish 5th-8th
ma re is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3rd, 2012, 02:32 PM   #69
country flag Frederik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,049
Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

How many points do we get for the Bronze medal match?

5?
Frederik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3rd, 2012, 04:52 PM   #70
country flag ma re
Senior Member
 
ma re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,900
ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik View Post
How many points do we get for the Bronze medal match?

5?
We were so concerned with the bonus for the winners that we forgot about that extra match! Yeah, I'd say 5 makes sense, although it's obviously late for some consensus or discussion about it. For doubles as well (the same points as for the correct picks in the semifinals)
ma re is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 4th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #71
country flag ronim1
Senior Member
 
ronim1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,075
ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of ronim1 has much to be proud of
Re: Rules thread - 2012

I'm in favor of ma re's suggestions.

Fred, what are you doing in Japan?
__________________
2013-Suicidee Tennis:Rank:56 Tipping: Rank: 8 Winner-AEGON Eastbourne;Carlsbad;Linz C-Y-P:Rank: 12 Winner-Florianopolis Pentathlon:Rank: 5 Winner-AUS Open;Florianopolis
2012- Tipping:Winner-Aus Open;London OG C-Y-P: Winner-Miami;Montreal Pentathlon:Winner-Stanford;London OG
2011- Tipping: Winner-Baku
2010- Tipping: Winner-Generali Ladies Linz;
2009 Winner Tipping:
Portoroz;2008 Winner Suicide Tennis: Generali Ladies Linz Tipping: Fortis Luxembourg;Kremlin Cup;Guangzhou;New Haven;OG Beijing;Los Angeles;Rome
ronim1 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 5th, 2012, 11:33 PM   #72
country flag Frederik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,049
Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronim1 View Post
I'm in favor of ma re's suggestions.

Fred, what are you doing in Japan?
I just like Japan
Frederik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #73
country flag ma re
Senior Member
 
ma re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,900
ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute ma re has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Another crazy idea.

How about we start (as of 2013) rewarding managers? We have very few managers and therefore those who do the job tend to be swamped with work, especially Fred and I (cause we step in whenever someone pulls out). I'm not talking any serious rewards, but only so much to draw people to apply for managing more often. For example, that a manager (in singles and in doubles) is after the tournament is over, awarded one addditional point. It's not much, but in some cases it could prove valuable.

What do you guys think?
ma re is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6th, 2012, 12:06 PM   #74
country flag Frederik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,049
Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute Frederik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

I'm not sure. I think we shouldn't award bonus points for managers.
Frederik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #75
country flag Håkon
Senior Member
 
Håkon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Bonn, NRW
Posts: 17,213
Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute Håkon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules thread - 2012

Not a good idea. Manager reward should be smiles and reps.

As for the new point system...I'm not sure I like it. Basically it becomes more important to pick early matches in grand slams than in other tournaments - going from these figures:

- a maximum of 177 points at a 32-draw IS event
- a maximum of 343 points at a 64-draw Premier event
- a maximum of 701 point at a Grand slam.

At IS you could get 32/177 points (~18 %) in the first two rounds. In 64-draws you then get 112/343 (~33 %) of points in the first two rounds, and in 128-draws you get 320/701 (~45 %) of points in the first two rounds.

Under today's system the percentages are

32/177 (~18 %)
64/280 (~23 %)
128/447 (~29 %)

All calculations assume no byes. (Of course what really matters is the differences caused by these points, not the absolute values, most of the time picks only differ by 10-15 % each round - but I still think there's something here that we need to take into account when creating the point system)
__________________
My twitter | FWTT: Cornelia du Preez
game wins: FITD US Open '12, Guangzhou '10 (#1 since 8 July 2013), TT Indian Wells '11, TT doubles Moskva '11, Brussel '12, Pattaya '13, Stuttgart '13 (w/Andreas), PAW 4 titles, Suicide Olympic gold + 2 titles, Tipping 3 titles (#1 for 25 weeks, USO Series '12), Q-Ball 7 titles, Blackjack #1 2012, Pentathlon #1 2012 (5 titles)
Азарэнка | Павлюченкова | Arvidsson| Halep | Eikeri | Clijsters | Rus | Van Uytvanck | Watson | Bertens | Superboerin Hogenkamp | Schoofs
Håkon is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios