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Old Dec 18th, 2009, 01:52 PM   #61
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

Quote:
Excellent point! We view Mandlikova in terms of her overall career, but what if, like Tracy she was all but finished by '82? People would probably hold her in even higher regard than Austin seeing as how she made 4 GS finals in a row winning two of them.
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Hana was never pulling down multiple titles the way Austin did. Tracy won 7 titles in 1979, 12 in 1980, 7 more in 1981-a year she played an abbreviated schedule.

Hana's largest haul was 7 titles in 1980,two of them at smaller events, which no doubt hurt her on the computer.

Career-wise Austin won 35 singles titles to Hana's 27.


At any rate, much as I love Martina and Chris, tis a pity for the 80s that Austin and Mandlikova both were beset by injuries. After Austin's 3 year "tornado" Martina and Chris were left with an undisturbed field to mine except for the off dust storm kicked up by Hana in 1985.

That's why I love 1981-four women at the top, and you Pam, keeping it real!
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Old Dec 18th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #62
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Hana was never pulling down multiple titles the way Austin did. Tracy won 7 titles in 1979, 12 in 1980, 7 more in 1981-a year she played an abbreviated schedule.

Hana's largest haul was 7 titles in 1980,two of them at smaller events, which no doubt hurt her on the computer.

Career-wise Austin won 35 singles titles to Hana's 27.


At any rate, much as I love Martina and Chris, tis a pity for the 80s that Austin and Mandlikova both were beset by injuries. After Austin's 3 year "tornado" Martina and Chris were left with an undisturbed field to mine except for the off dust storm kicked up by Hana in 1985.

That's why I love 1981-four women at the top, and you Pam, keeping it real!
i liked it more when jaeger entered the fold; there was more a sense of 'anyone can win' with her there.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:07 PM   #63
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
For whatver reasons Tracy beat Chris in the Italian in 1979 - which also brought Chris' record-breaking clay court streak to an end.
ChrisI agree and it was a piece of tennis history. Austin should be congratulated for it, instead of a ream of excuses always dregged up to justify the Evert defeat.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:09 PM   #64
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
Funnily enough I originally thought it was in favour of Tracy too but this is from the WTA website:


1977WIMBLEDONGRASSR32C. EVERT6-1 6-10 (1)
1978HILTON HEADCLAYSC. EVERT6-3 6-10
(5) 1978US OPENHARDQC. EVERT7-5 6-10 (2)
1979AVON CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR32C. EVERT6-3 6-10
1979LA COSTAHARDSC. EVERT6-1 7-50
1979ITALIAN OPENCLAYST.AUSTIN6-4 2-6 7-60
1979BERGEN - VOLVOHARDFC. EVERT6-7 6-4 6-10
(3) 1979US OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-4 6-30 (1)
1979STUTTGARTCARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 7-50
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETR2T.AUSTIN6-1 6-30
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 6-00
1980CINCINNATICARPETFT.AUSTIN6-2 6-10
1980US OPENHARDSC. EVERT4-6 6-1 6-10 (3)
1981CANADIAN OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-1 6-40 (1)
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETST.AUSTIN6-1 6-20
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR3C. EVERT4-6 6-4 7-60
1982TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETSC. EVERT6-0 6-00 (2)


That's 9 wins for Evert and 8 for Austin unless they've got a wrong result somewhere.
Chris,that 79 result indoors on the Avon tour dosent look right to me?????
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:11 PM   #65
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
La Costa was an exhibition. A santioned exhibition (I guess that's why it's counted?), but an exho nonetheless.

That would make it 8-8



Austin was still in high school during those years and had finals during the period the French was played.

Now who is playing the "what if" game? If Evert lost to Mandlikova on clay at the French it was possible for her to lose to Tracy, who had no problems winning EVERY clay court match she played in 1979 and 1980.

You get credit for taking all of us on Dennis. I see Iainmac and Chris are keeping you busy!
Dennis is great RolloBut I am afraid I cant take him too seriously re Austin as he is not subjective I am afraid!!!!
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:15 PM   #66
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Declan View Post
I can't be arsed to look it all up, but I always thought it was a fact that the final head to head was 9-8 in Tracy's favour. As a Chris fan I always thought the final 6-0 6-0 encounter sort of counted as two wins so the honours were even!!!

What about Tracy's comeback? Not the accident-hit 1989 attempt, but the full-on 1994 version? In her autoboigraphy, published about two years earlier, she said she thought she still had the game to get back into the top 15 in the rankings, no question, but further than that, she didn't know. But the reality was far less impressive, and she stalled in the 80s, I think. Did anyone actually see her play for her few months back on tour? I was due to see her in Eastbourne but she disappointly lost to Kristine Radford in her first match, the day before I had tickets to the event, and she announced her permanent retirement there and then...Damn!!
DeclanTo be honest she was never going to be in the top fifteen. I mean a few years away is difficult enough but when we are talking a decade it moves into the realm of fantasy. The Austin game was so groomed and dependent on timing and I guess that she was not going to ever come back when she went off the rails in 83. It does reflect the more mechanical aspects of her game I admit. But again I do admire that she tried to come back,even though she knew she would never be a GS winner again.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:17 PM   #67
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by matthirst2000 View Post
Austin won the 1979 Avon Championship match 63 61.Not Evert.Tracy leads H2H 9-8.Significant as one of the very few players to have a winiing H2H against Evert.Think Evert was preparing for John Lloyd wedding at time of 79 Avon match.


1977WIMBLEDONGRASSR32C. EVERT6-1 6-10 (1)
1978HILTON HEADCLAYSC. EVERT6-3 6-10
(5) 1978US OPENHARDQC. EVERT7-5 6-10 (2)
1979AVON CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR32C. EVERT6-3 6-10
1979LA COSTAHARDSC. EVERT6-1 7-50
1979ITALIAN OPENCLAYST.AUSTIN6-4 2-6 7-60
1979BERGEN - VOLVOHARDFC. EVERT6-7 6-4 6-10
(3) 1979US OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-4 6-30 (1)
1979STUTTGARTCARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 7-50
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETR2T.AUSTIN6-1 6-30
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 6-00
1980CINCINNATICARPETFT.AUSTIN6-2 6-10
1980US OPENHARDSC. EVERT4-6 6-1 6-10 (3)
1981CANADIAN OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-1 6-40 (1)
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETST.AUSTIN6-1 6-20
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR3C. EVERT4-6 6-4 7-60
1982TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETSC. EVERT6-0 6-00 (2)


That's 9 wins for Evert and 8 for Austin unless they've got a wrong result somewhere.
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That is what I thought- I knew that at that stage Evert was not focussed enough to beat Austin.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:18 PM   #68
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Thanks for spotting that Matt! I think Chris also lost to Diannne Fromholtz in the round robin. Tracy lost in 3 sets to Martina in the finals.
RolloThat is correct- Evert also lost to Fromholtz. It was reported that the only really good tennis she played that week was in a 64 64 win over Barker. Sue had beaten her the week before in Boston.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:24 PM   #69
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
Fed Cup is not the same as tournaments.

And I ask again, why didn't Austin play the French in 19791 or 1980? I don't believe it was injuries.

1981? Perhaps it was injuries. The German open was only her first event of the year.

Of course it's all supposition. But I will always maintain: AIN'T no way Austin would have beaten Evert at Roland Garros, or even on the green clay at Hilton Head or Amelia Island. No way. Why? Evert grew up on clay. Austin didn't. Chris had all the experience and skills to succeed on clay (125 in a row; 64 in a row). Tracy did not. Evert had a much more fluid and flexible game, which you need on clay to succeed.

And looking at it from the big picture. Being in shape, knowing how to train, how to maximize your physicality in the game of tennis is a skill. Some players have done it better than others. Luck is an issue too. Austin was injury prone from the time she was young. Evert was not.

There are too many "what ifs" out there for so many players. It's always easy to play the "what if" game for your favorite, because things didn't go their way. Some like to extrapolate out from a single result, meaning, well if it happened once, it was always going to happen the same way. (A classic example was Chris Evert's 6-0,6-0 demolition of Navratilova in 1981 Amelia Island. Who would have guessed that 3 years later in the very same tournament, Navratilova would win her first match ever over Evert on clay, and lose a mere 2 games in the process?) Tennis is an interesting sport. Results are never a given. But I tell you one thing. The closest there ever was to a give in tennis is Chris Evert's success on clay! And I do wish Chris and Tracy had played more often on clay. The H2H no doubt would have been in Evert's favor.
The Federation Cup is not a normal tournament? Ah well maybe but you still played 5 weeks in a row to win all your matches if your team is in the final. Your argument has no substance I am afraid. Austin dominated on these clay courts and against some very tough clay court players. And are you trying to say that Jaeger was a vastly better clay court player than Austin? Bearing in mind that Jaeger demolished Evert twice on clay in 82. I do understand you disliked Austin. By the way she is not my favourite player- not even my top ten faves. It is just I am able to be rational and fair about every player I discuss. I will not allow personal opinions to detract from the validity of my arguments.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:26 PM   #70
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by preacherfan View Post
I saw Tracy play doubles in 1988 in New Orleans with Stephanie Rehe. They beat G.Fernandez/R.White before losing to Beth Herr and Candy Reynolds fairly easily. I saw the loss. Herr and Reynolds were traditional doubles players while Rehe/Austin were not strong serve/volleyers. I remember not being impressed with her power. Neither she nor Rehe could hurt their opponents at all.

I saw clips of her win in '93 over K.Maleeva. I was shocked that she won. The points that I saw looked like she was a rec player with good precision, but zero power. I think Maleeva just didn't show up.

I wonder if her back to back losses to Rottier that year were the only times she ever lost to the same player in consecutive matches.
I really do feel that she was like Borg with his comebacks- their games were too rusty and were never going to get back to the groove of their heydays.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:34 PM   #71
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
Tracy is always a terrific and tough subject, and this is NOT to malign the girl i so fondly call 'Braces' (hug) but to highlight some of the resistance some people probably put up when confronted with placing tracy at a certain tier of accomplishment. while she was handed a tough set of cards in the end, what she got was 'legend' because her whole existence is such a wild collection of what ifs and unknowns. many assume the legend would have been toward the greater, but that's not necessarily so when you look at all the teen phenoms who come and go after a few strong years.

first, the issue of her rivalry with chris -- they played 6 years but everyone tends to focus on & make many judgments by the 4 1/2 month stretch during which chris was handily beaten by tracy, with evert winning just 25 games in 5 matches total.

on the other side of that coin is that FIVE of tracy's 9-to-8 career head to head wins all happened in this very short span of time, when chris was dealing with the meaning of her marriage commitments at the same moment tracy was on an ascendency of fearlessness and desire (which happens for every great player when they first hit)... it is hard to find stable ground for meaning and measurements in such a tiny window of time with those heavily-weighing factors on both player's plates.

especially in regard to a player who never won -or reached a final- of any other slam on any other surface than the us open's hard court.

one could suggest that she may have developed into a fine grass court player but her overwhelming tendency to take the ball on the rise -- which serves her terrifically on a hard court -- doesn't pan so well on grass with so many bad and uneven bounces. a player like chris can adjust because she waits for the ball to go waist high... tracy was tripped up at the shoe laces many times on grass because of her timing of the ball, which is born out of learning to play with consistent hard court bounces.

clay she was very good but also not overwhelming. her 'claim to fame' on clay is still the beating of evert 7-6 in the 3rd in rome, within a month of evert's marriage to lloyd. chrissie barely escaped fromholtz -- 8-6 in the 3rd -- the week prior in spain. so again, nice accomplishment to be able to claim, but there were once again a great deal of 'circumstances' attached to her victory from the outside. for me, its another inconclusive assumption about her prowess on the dirt. though she certainly didn't suck!

still, its one thing to make a big horrah at the party when you're the new kid, and the older players are trying to fend you off... but that pressure gets to everyone when --as tracy commented this year-- when you're "no longer the hunter but the hunted, its a whole different dynamic and not everyone can make that shift" and to my mind, she did not have time to prove herself in that. her extremely weak serve and rigid movement make me doubtful she would adapt to the demands of the graphite racquet that came knockin' on the door in 83... but she was very tough, determined, and strong willed competitor so no one can count her out. It just seems that she had an edge of power that would have been a tad neutralized by the bigger gunned racquets everyone would be using just around the corner, when she had to pull out of the sport with her injuries.

mandlikova could also beat both chris & martina, and proved she could do it in succession. she could also beat graf. she also won more slams and on more surfaces (twice as many slams on all 3 surfaces, to be exact). i have no problem placing her above austin. a player like hana suffers in comparison because she DID have to prove herself long term and didnt get to skip away on 'legend'; and after winning a few slams early and getting to some slam finals with very big wins, people started to learn her game and the pressure also mounted. theres no way to assume austin would have done it, any more than that sabatini would lose from 6-1 5-1 up at the french and never be the same again.
DazeThat is a great post and you are right in most respects. There is a tendency to err towards the idea that a player would have been greater if their career not cut short. It does become a mythical type thing. As for Mandlikova of course she achieved more so she is the greater player. But that is the reality- back in the realm of what ifs I am sure Tracy would have had the edge as she did through their real life rivalry. Not to say that Mandlikova was not much more talented- of course she was.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:37 PM   #72
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by gabybackhand View Post
From what I see, it seems Austin's numbers re Evert where fairly even but as Daze points out she was dominant during a very brieg period and so her stature got enhanced in the process, but in the big picture Evert got up the upper hand?
I think Austin's win at the Italian 79 is remarkable, but the wedding factor and all the pressure after such a long streak would have been hard to deal with (à la Nadal), and she would eventually lose some time, especially against a good player. Simply a probability issue. Yet I think it's right to assume that Austin was lucky to have played against Evert on clay more, as the number would have probably ended up better for Chris. I think the same about Nadal vs. Federer, yet the Spaniard brings the worst out of Federer, too many of their matches were on clay so Rafa got an advantage: Roger got to the finals on EVERY surface and got beaten by Nadal mostly on clay, but Rafa didn't reach all the finals on other surfaces so Roger couldn't get a chance to get even.
I think Navratilova's numbers against some players would have been different (especially the top players in early nineties) had she not skipped playing most of the clay court season and mainly Roland-Garros: she could beat anyone, but her chances were thinner on clay against the likes of Graf, Sánchez, Sabatini and some more.
I guess there are some analogies with the Nadal streak, albiet the latter was much more widely publicised in the world of sport and this would bring its own pressures. Do you mean that Navratilova would not have been so successful in the nineties if she had played more on clay? I wasnt sure the point you were making there.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #73
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
the 6 matches (ie, if chris won 3 more of the 80 matches, they'd be even) that chris is down in the martina rivalry would definitely be evened out had navratilova not skipped the clay court season all those years (don't even get me strated!! ) ... especially as chris never skipped the indoor circuit even though most of her bad losses (including *ALL* of the bad ones to tracy) occured on indoor hardcourt.
Evert never skipped the indoor circuit? That is not totally true DazeShe barely played any events in 81 or 82. Cynics could say she was avoiding Navratilova on that surface? And as for Navratilova skipping the French Open, correct me if I am wrong but the only years that Evert played the French Open and Navratilova didnt was 79 and 80. That hardly constitutes a magnitude. And her reasons mid 70s were the same as everyone elses- WTT.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:42 PM   #74
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by preacherfan View Post
I know that this is a Tracy thread, but...
To add to this sentiment - From 1973-1977 Martina lost numerous times before the semis and finals of events. This rarely occurred in Evert's career. Therefore, I submit that Evert probably had more events that she won in which Martina played than events that Martina won in which Evert played - which in my mind might be more important than a h2h.

Also, noting the h2h in Grand Slam finals is overly Martina-favoring. Why didn't Chrissie beat Martina in more of her Slam finals. Often, that's because Martina lost earlier to someone else. You don't get that in a h2h.

Probably the same is true when comparing Austin vs. Evert.
But Austin and Evert usually played in finals or semis.
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Old Dec 19th, 2009, 03:44 PM   #75
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Declan View Post
I believe Tracy missed Roland Garros in those key years because of school, quite simply. She said that seemed more important, and she figured she had many years thereafter to win in Paris.
DeclanThat was what I thought as well. I mean the idea that a player as fearless as Austin would be frightened of playing at Roland Garros does not seem credible. Especially as year after year she put herself on the line on British grass- now if she had avoided that I would have understood............
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