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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:22 AM   #31
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
Isn't the h2h between Tracy and Chris 9-8 in Chris's favour?
ChrisI thought it was in favour of Austin, in fact I am sure it is.
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:24 AM   #32
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Mark43 View Post
I've got to disagree with that. A healthy evolving Austin would have won more majors. In 1989 (1989!?) she was only 26 and had she remained injury-free everyone's number would probably have been different, save perhaps Graf's.
I agree with that Mark. I am sure she would have won a few more Opens and the French at some point as well. The thing is she would still have been so young- if she had been injury free of course she would have evolved. Champions do-it is in their nature to do so.
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:26 AM   #33
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
There you have it. If Austin would have remained healthy. And if she evolved as a player. She would have won more majors.

Far too many suppositions for my taste.

I'd like someone to list out the winners of majors from 1982-1989, and then indicate the majors Austin would have won. I'd find it very entertaining.
Dennis, not meaning to be cheeky fella, but your excellent post was full of suppostions as well. If she had played things would have been no different etc. What is good for your viewpoint is good for the other I guess??
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:27 AM   #34
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Mark43 View Post
Now, now, DennisFitz!
I am going to go out on a limb here and say...
1988 Steffi Graf d Chris Evert 6-1, 7-6(3)
That woulda been the much-maligned 25 year old Miss Tracy Austin's year.
That Australian Open it could have been. For me though the 82 French and US Opens could have been Austins??
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:30 AM   #35
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Yes, but Seles and Connolly are far bigger what ifs because their injuries were not tennis related. In Austin's case we know that it took so much out of her to compete with Chris and Martina that her body gave up on her. I guess we can wonder about "what if Tracy had had a different back", but then we can also wonder about "what if Pam Shriver had had Serena's physical strenght."
How you doinWell to a degree I agree but Austin did not go physically downhill because of the pressure of competing with Navratilova and Evert. It would not have mattered who her opposition was. She just didnt train properly full stop. If the opposition had been Jausovec and Ruzici she would still have come to a grinding halt. She was not intimidated by Navratilova or Evert.
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:33 AM   #36
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
Agree. It would have been the year where Evert bounced Austin from the 4th round, by the embarrassing score of 6-0,6-1. After blitzing Austin for the 12th straight time in straight sets, Chris wonders aloud how she could have ever lost to Austin, way back in the early 1980s.
Now Dennis, objectivity is being thrown out the window. And isnt that a bit of a suppostion- with you not liking to do that.Austin will always be remembered as a remarkable young champion. There is no real evidence to conclusively say what she would have done if she had become an adult champion.
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 08:35 AM   #37
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
Austin never won the French. And would have never won, even if she competed from 1979-1981. But the big question is why didn't she play those years? She wasn't injured. In 1979 she played in the Italian, but didn't play in France. She skipped the European clay season in 1980. And the following year she played the German Open, losing in QF, and didn't play the French.

If Austin were confident enough in her abilities, she would have played there. But she didn't. There is no way Evert loses to Austin in the French. And that assumes Tracy makes it to even meet Chris. Too many good European clay courters waiting to pounce on Miss Hard Courts.

Austin may have had a 9-8 career H2H over Evert. But think, if the two played as often on clay as Federer and Nadal have, just what do you think the Evert-Austin H2H would have been?
Dennis, you overlook the fact that she played in the Federation Cup for the United States on SLOW clay in Madrid and Berlin in 1979 and 1980. Apart from one set against Mandlikova, she was the dominant player of the event. Even including Evert- how does that equate with your argument???
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 12:21 PM   #38
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
There is no way Evert loses to Austin in the French. And that assumes Tracy makes it to even meet Chris.If the two played as often on clay as Federer and Nadal have, just what do you think the Evert-Austin H2H would have been?
For whatver reasons Tracy beat Chris in the Italian in 1979 - which also brought Chris' record-breaking clay court streak to an end.
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 12:24 PM   #39
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
ChrisI thought it was in favour of Austin, in fact I am sure it is.
Funnily enough I originally thought it was in favour of Tracy too but this is from the WTA website:


1977WIMBLEDONGRASSR32C. EVERT6-1 6-10 (1)
1978HILTON HEADCLAYSC. EVERT6-3 6-10
(5) 1978US OPENHARDQC. EVERT7-5 6-10 (2)
1979AVON CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR32C. EVERT6-3 6-10
1979LA COSTAHARDSC. EVERT6-1 7-50
1979ITALIAN OPENCLAYST.AUSTIN6-4 2-6 7-60
1979BERGEN - VOLVOHARDFC. EVERT6-7 6-4 6-10
(3) 1979US OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-4 6-30 (1)
1979STUTTGARTCARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 7-50
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETR2T.AUSTIN6-1 6-30
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 6-00
1980CINCINNATICARPETFT.AUSTIN6-2 6-10
1980US OPENHARDSC. EVERT4-6 6-1 6-10 (3)
1981CANADIAN OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-1 6-40 (1)
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETST.AUSTIN6-1 6-20
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR3C. EVERT4-6 6-4 7-60
1982TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETSC. EVERT6-0 6-00 (2)


That's 9 wins for Evert and 8 for Austin unless they've got a wrong result somewhere.
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 12:52 PM   #40
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

La Costa was an exhibition. A santioned exhibition (I guess that's why it's counted?), but an exho nonetheless.

That would make it 8-8

Quote:
Austin never won the French. And would have never won, even if she competed from 1979-1981. But the big question is why didn't she play those years? She wasn't injured. In 1979 she played in the Italian, but didn't play in France. She skipped the European clay season in 1980. And the following year she played the German Open, losing in QF, and didn't play the French.
Austin was still in high school during those years and had finals during the period the French was played.

Quote:
If Austin were confident enough in her abilities, she would have played there. But she didn't. There is no way Evert loses to Austin in the French. And that assumes Tracy makes it to even meet Chris. Too many good European clay courters waiting to pounce on Miss Hard Courts.
Now who is playing the "what if" game? If Evert lost to Mandlikova on clay at the French it was possible for her to lose to Tracy, who had no problems winning EVERY clay court match she played in 1979 and 1980.

You get credit for taking all of us on Dennis. I see Iainmac and Chris are keeping you busy!
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Old Dec 15th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #41
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

And with all of the interest in Tracy I still need a mod for her home guys.

Anyone?
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Old Dec 16th, 2009, 07:31 PM   #42
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

I can't be arsed to look it all up, but I always thought it was a fact that the final head to head was 9-8 in Tracy's favour. As a Chris fan I always thought the final 6-0 6-0 encounter sort of counted as two wins so the honours were even!!!

What about Tracy's comeback? Not the accident-hit 1989 attempt, but the full-on 1994 version? In her autoboigraphy, published about two years earlier, she said she thought she still had the game to get back into the top 15 in the rankings, no question, but further than that, she didn't know. But the reality was far less impressive, and she stalled in the 80s, I think. Did anyone actually see her play for her few months back on tour? I was due to see her in Eastbourne but she disappointly lost to Kristine Radford in her first match, the day before I had tickets to the event, and she announced her permanent retirement there and then...Damn!!
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Old Dec 16th, 2009, 09:40 PM   #43
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

Austin won the 1979 Avon Championship match 63 61.Not Evert.Tracy leads H2H 9-8.Significant as one of the very few players to have a winiing H2H against Evert.Think Evert was preparing for John Lloyd wedding at time of 79 Avon match.


1977WIMBLEDONGRASSR32C. EVERT6-1 6-10 (1)
1978HILTON HEADCLAYSC. EVERT6-3 6-10
(5) 1978US OPENHARDQC. EVERT7-5 6-10 (2)
1979AVON CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR32C. EVERT6-3 6-10
1979LA COSTAHARDSC. EVERT6-1 7-50
1979ITALIAN OPENCLAYST.AUSTIN6-4 2-6 7-60
1979BERGEN - VOLVOHARDFC. EVERT6-7 6-4 6-10
(3) 1979US OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-4 6-30 (1)
1979STUTTGARTCARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 7-50
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETR2T.AUSTIN6-1 6-30
1980VS WASHINGTON (RR)CARPETST.AUSTIN6-3 6-00
1980CINCINNATICARPETFT.AUSTIN6-2 6-10
1980US OPENHARDSC. EVERT4-6 6-1 6-10 (3)
1981CANADIAN OPENHARDFT.AUSTIN6-1 6-40 (1)
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETST.AUSTIN6-1 6-20
1981TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETR3C. EVERT4-6 6-4 7-60
1982TOYOTA CHAMPIONSHIPSCARPETSC. EVERT6-0 6-00 (2)


That's 9 wins for Evert and 8 for Austin unless they've got a wrong result somewhere.[/quote]
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Old Dec 16th, 2009, 10:09 PM   #44
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

Quote:
Austin won the 1979 Avon Championship match 63 61.Not Evert.Tracy leads H2H 9-8.Significant as one of the very few players to have a winiing H2H against Evert.Think Evert was preparing for John Lloyd wedding at time of 79 Avon match
Thanks for spotting that Matt! I think Chris also lost to Diannne Fromholtz in the round robin. Tracy lost in 3 sets to Martina in the finals.
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Old Dec 17th, 2009, 01:18 AM   #45
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Re: The much-maligned Miss Tracy Austin

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Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
Dennis, you overlook the fact that she played in the Federation Cup for the United States on SLOW clay in Madrid and Berlin in 1979 and 1980. Apart from one set against Mandlikova, she was the dominant player of the event. Even including Evert- how does that equate with your argument???
Fed Cup is not the same as tournaments.

And I ask again, why didn't Austin play the French in 19791 or 1980? I don't believe it was injuries.

1981? Perhaps it was injuries. The German open was only her first event of the year.

Of course it's all supposition. But I will always maintain: AIN'T no way Austin would have beaten Evert at Roland Garros, or even on the green clay at Hilton Head or Amelia Island. No way. Why? Evert grew up on clay. Austin didn't. Chris had all the experience and skills to succeed on clay (125 in a row; 64 in a row). Tracy did not. Evert had a much more fluid and flexible game, which you need on clay to succeed.

And looking at it from the big picture. Being in shape, knowing how to train, how to maximize your physicality in the game of tennis is a skill. Some players have done it better than others. Luck is an issue too. Austin was injury prone from the time she was young. Evert was not.

There are too many "what ifs" out there for so many players. It's always easy to play the "what if" game for your favorite, because things didn't go their way. Some like to extrapolate out from a single result, meaning, well if it happened once, it was always going to happen the same way. (A classic example was Chris Evert's 6-0,6-0 demolition of Navratilova in 1981 Amelia Island. Who would have guessed that 3 years later in the very same tournament, Navratilova would win her first match ever over Evert on clay, and lose a mere 2 games in the process?) Tennis is an interesting sport. Results are never a given. But I tell you one thing. The closest there ever was to a give in tennis is Chris Evert's success on clay! And I do wish Chris and Tracy had played more often on clay. The H2H no doubt would have been in Evert's favor.
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