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View Poll Results: Was the WHCC a Grand Slam event?

Yes it was. So French Championships had two sets of winners. 2 8.70%
No it wasn't. French Championships is a separate event with only one set of winners. 21 91.30%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 05:06 AM   #1
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Question World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Just wondering what everyone thinks of this. For me, the Grand Slam in tennis is:

Australian (Open) Championships (Past winners)
French (Open) Championships (Past winners)
Wimbledon (Past winners)
US (Open) Championships (Past winners)

There's been a disturbing number of posters who are counting World Hard Court Championships from 1912-1923 as a Grand Slam event most likely due to sources like Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne...singles_finals

For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena~lover View Post
The 'additional' four slams were not National Championships. They were the World Hardcourt Championships where all the worlds best players competed until 1925 when the French was opened to non-French nationals.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost....09&postcount=5

This is what happens when people rely on Wikipedia for knowledge.

I just wanted to clarify that most people are still on the same page with regard to the Grand Slam events. I mean if we're going to include events like World Hard Court Championships then before we know it, events like Lipton International Players Championships (Miami) or World Team Tennis from 1970s will be included.

I just want to make sure that the idea that a Grand Slam event is a Grand Slam event because USA, France, Great Britain and Australia dominated Davis Cup for decades from its inception and thus the Championships of those four nations became the cornerstone events of the sport is still alive.

If you look at the past winners list for the French (Open) Championships it does not talk about World Hard Court Champions at all. Nor does it talk about the World Hard Court Championships, which was a separate event.
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 06:07 AM   #2
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

From Wiki

1Until 1923, the French Championships were open only to French nationals. The World Hard Court Championships (WHCC), actually played on clay in Paris or Brussels, began in 1912 and were open to all nationalities. The results from that tournament are shown here for 1914 and from 1920 through 1923. The Olympics replaced the WHCC in 1924, as the Olympics were held in Paris. Beginning in 1925, the French Championships were open to all nationalities, with the results shown here beginning with that year.

And Lenglen's major haul would be the same even if you exclude WHCC and swap in the closed French championships--12. There's no double dipping involved. I don't see what the problem is. The WHCC was a much bigger event, open to anyone, and tennis historians credit that as France's "major" during the time frame before the french championships were open.
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 07:50 AM   #3
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
From Wiki

1Until 1923, the French Championships were open only to French nationals. The World Hard Court Championships (WHCC), actually played on clay in Paris or Brussels, began in 1912 and were open to all nationalities. The results from that tournament are shown here for 1914 and from 1920 through 1923. The Olympics replaced the WHCC in 1924, as the Olympics were held in Paris. Beginning in 1925, the French Championships were open to all nationalities, with the results shown here beginning with that year.

And Lenglen's major haul would be the same even if you exclude WHCC and swap in the closed French championships--12. There's no double dipping involved. I don't see what the problem is. The WHCC was a much bigger event, open to anyone, and tennis historians credit that as France's "major" during the time frame before the french championships were open.
Which tennis historians credit it as France's "major"? Please give me some names?

So are you actually answering "Yes, it was a Grand Slam event"?

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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 07:54 AM   #4
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
From Wiki

1Until 1923, the French Championships were open only to French nationals. The World Hard Court Championships (WHCC), actually played on clay in Paris or Brussels, began in 1912 and were open to all nationalities. The results from that tournament are shown here for 1914 and from 1920 through 1923. The Olympics replaced the WHCC in 1924, as the Olympics were held in Paris. Beginning in 1925, the French Championships were open to all nationalities, with the results shown here beginning with that year.

And Lenglen's major haul would be the same even if you exclude WHCC and swap in the closed French championships--12. There's no double dipping involved. I don't see what the problem is. The WHCC was a much bigger event, open to anyone, and tennis historians credit that as France's "major" during the time frame before the french championships were open.
I, like the original poster and Tennis Hall of Fame, put Lenglen's major total at 8, because certainly the French Championships should not count as a major during the time when it was only open to French nationals and I've seen little evidence to support the idea that the WHCC was ever considered to be a major. I think this idea comes primarily from Lenglen supporters who are trying to inflate her total to better reflect her dominance as a player.

Anyway, what tennis historians credit the WHCC as having been a major? Do you have quotes? And has the WHCC ever been used as part of the major total of any player besides Lenglen?
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 08:23 AM   #5
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnomyBC View Post
I, like the original poster and Tennis Hall of Fame, put Lenglen's major total at 8, because certainly the French Championships should not count as a major during the time when it was only open to French nationals and I've seen little evidence to support the idea that the WHCC was ever considered to be a major. I think this idea comes primarily from Lenglen supporters who are trying to inflate her total to better reflect her dominance as a player.

Anyway, what tennis historians credit the WHCC as having been a major? Do you have quotes? And has the WHCC ever been used as part of the major total of any player besides Lenglen?
Lenglen supporters. Aren't they all long dead?
So not only will you eliminate the WHCC but also SL's French nationals as majors? So basically she only had one opportunity to win a major per year-- Wimbledon (and even that opportunity was significantly compromised due to war).
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 08:38 AM   #6
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
Lenglen supporters. Aren't they all long dead?
So not only will you eliminate the WHCC but also SL's French nationals as majors? So basically she only had one opportunity to win a major per year-- Wimbledon (and even that opportunity was significantly compromised due to war).
No he has a great point because Bill Tilden also won the 1921 World Hard Court Championships but on the same source (Wikipedia) his page doesn't say he won a French Championship or a Grand Slam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ti...nd_Slam_record

His Grand Slam record is as it should be: 10 Grand Slam singles (3 Wimbledons and 7 US Championships).

So maybe it's Lenglen supporters, maybe it's people who do not know or understand the concept of "Grand Slam" tennis. Who knows.. either way it is wrong.

And I won't even go there about opportunities because that's not the point of this discussion.

I actually happen to think Lenglen as one of the Greatest players of all time. She doesn't need numbers to back up her greatness. But that's another thread. I'm a purist. This is about getting the truth, not just fudging numbers to make a point.
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #7
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

http://grandslamtennis.freeukisp.co.uk/info.htm
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #8
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

World hard court championships on clay?
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #9
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
http://grandslamtennis.freeukisp.co....0CHAMPIONS.htm
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 09:34 AM   #10
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
http://grandslamtennis.freeukisp.co.uk/index.html

Quote:
TOP 10 GRAND SLAM WOMEN'S SINGLES CHAMPIONS

1. Margaret Smith Court 24
2. Steffi Graf 22
3. Helen Wills Moody 19
4. Chris Evert Lloyd 18
4. Martina Navratilova 18
6. Billie-Jean Moffitt King 12
7. Serena Williams 11
8. Maureen Connolly 9
8. Monica Seles 9
10. Suzanne Lenglen 8
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 09:39 AM   #11
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

http://grandslamtennis.freeukisp.co.uk/lenglen.htm

Hm, I don't know why, but I've always remembered SL as being mentioned as having 12 majors. Maybe it's just the number fudging.

Although I don't see that much of a problem in counting France's big open tournament as a major while there was a closed national event, especially considering the big open event was no longer held once the national event became open.

They didn't even have anything near a concept of grand slam tennis back then, anyway. The big tournaments for women were Wimbledon, and US Open, and WHCC, which was homologous to the tournaments that are counted as a "major."
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 10:04 AM   #12
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Wimbledon is the only one, others come and go.
Even this US Open thing hasn't really some tradition. Changed their surface every 2 years in the 70ies.
Navratilova refused to play French Open for a lot of years.
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 10:25 AM   #13
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faboozadoo15 View Post
Lenglen supporters. Aren't they all long dead?
So not only will you eliminate the WHCC but also SL's French nationals as majors? So basically she only had one opportunity to win a major per year-- Wimbledon (and even that opportunity was significantly compromised due to war).
Well Bud Collins is still alive But yes, what you're saying is true. For 4 years of her career she didn't get to play any majors and if you don't count the French before 1925 or the WHCC as majors, then that means for 7 years of her career she was only able to play 1 major and then in the remaining 2 years of her career she was only able to play 2. That's why her slam total is hugely misleading. But that really has nothing to do with whether or not the WHCC was a major. Either it was considered a major at the time or it wasn't. It may be that evidence can be produced that would support the argument that it was indeed considered to be a major, but it shouldn't be elevated to a major just to benefit Lenglen's stats.

PS - One argument for it being a major that no one has mentioned---It was apparently a bigger tournament at the time than the Australian Championships and yet we do consider that to have been a major.
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 10:28 AM   #14
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
http://grandslamtennis.freeukisp.co.uk/index.html



Game, set and match Sam L!!

Damn! Thank you, thank you...
I'm finding this all interesting, but not sure why you're posting this link, it's just some guy's website, nothing remotely official about it
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Old Jul 12th, 2009, 10:34 AM   #15
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Re: World Hard Court Championships was a Grand Slam event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inktrailer View Post
I'm finding this all interesting, but not sure why you're posting this link, it's just some guy's website, nothing remotely official about it
You should take that up with the poster that posted it in the first place.
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