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Old May 13th, 2009, 03:58 PM   #31
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Re: Maine becomes the 5th State in the US to legalize Gay Marriage; NH next

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Originally Posted by In The Zone View Post
I guess we could make this the gay marriage thread. With so many recent and daily developments, I feel bad creating so many threads.



http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx...=1&Category=26

As for New Hampshire, the paperwork bureaucracy is still going on and it has not been given to Gov. Lynch yet so the 5-day countdown has not started yet although the bill was passed last week.
Are the 4 Democrats in the Senate who have not come out in support changed their positions yet? Otherwise it will fail again.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #32
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

On paper, it is 32 Dems to 30 Republicans. 3 Democrats are OPENLY against gay marriage and very vocal.

So that's 29-33, it would lose. The ones who have not come out I think will come around (lobbying, groupthink, and you know, doing the RIGHT THING). As for Republican terms, NY Republicans are progressive for Republicans as a whole. To say all 30 go to no is not realistic. It will be VERY close.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 04:09 PM   #33
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

come on let people be with whomever the hell they fall in love with
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Old May 13th, 2009, 04:11 PM   #34
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

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Originally Posted by In The Zone View Post
On paper, it is 32 Dems to 30 Republicans. 3 Democrats are OPENLY against gay marriage and very vocal.

So that's 29-33, it would lose. The ones who have not come out I think will come around (lobbying, groupthink, and you know, doing the RIGHT THING). As for Republican terms, NY Republicans are progressive for Republicans as a whole. To say all 30 go to no is not realistic. It will be VERY close.
What happens if its 31-31. Is there any deciding vote concept and who votes then if so?
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Old May 13th, 2009, 04:15 PM   #35
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

I was thinking the same thing because it is VERY possible.

Just like the US Senate where the VP is the deciding vote, the same is done in NY State; State Lieutenant Governor is the symbolic VP of the state and he would cast the deciding vote. This is actually the position Gov. Paterson had before Spitzer's scandal. He is Paterson's VP and is hopefully in favor since 31-31 is very possible.

EDIT! Wow! This is AMAZING.

Quote:
There is no lieutenant governor currently, but Senate President/Majority Leader Malcolm Smith is performing the duties of lieutenant governor, following the succession of David Paterson to the governorship on March 17, 2008.[1]
Malcolm Smith is one of the chief proponents of the bill!
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Old May 13th, 2009, 04:25 PM   #36
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

Thanks for all the updates ITZ.. Really great news....
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Old May 14th, 2009, 12:41 AM   #37
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

Excellent article breaking down the NY Senate math. 25 Democrats have openly approved the bill along with 1 Republican. That is 26. 6 votes need to be had. (This article says the Lt. Governor is not used, even though Malcolm Smith could be. I'll have to find the actual answer.) My Senator is, of course, the Republican Senate Minority Leader.

http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/56449/

Quote:
Gay Math
Running the marriage numbers in Albany.


Here’s the arithmetic as it currently stands: The Democrats have a 32-30 majority, but seven of them have said (or hinted) that they oppose the bill (including Senator Rubén Díaz Sr., who actually held an anti-gay-marriage rally in the Bronx last week). Only one Republican, Senator James S. Alesi of Rochester, is on the record supporting the measure, which puts it at least six votes short of victory. (Because of Paterson’s elevation, there’s no extra lieutenant-governor vote to break a tie.)

So who might those votes come from? Alan Van Capelle, executive director of Empire State Pride Agenda, suggests four of the seven Democrats in the “nay” camp are actually movable: Senators George Onorato of Astoria, William T. Stachowski of Buffalo, David J. Valesky of Oneida, and Shirley L. Huntley of Jamaica. In 2007, Van Capelle says, Democratic Assembly members like Joe Lentol opposed the bill initially but ended up voting for it. “So we know that when we do the work that needs to be done, which includes giving the facts and telling our stories, people can change their minds.”

If those four come around, only two Republicans will be needed to pass the measure—though lobbyists hope for more. “Nobody wants to be the one person to change the vote,” said Marriage Equality New York head Ron Zacchi. The current legislative session ends June 22, so there’s still time for persuading. Senate Majority Leader Malcolm Smith has said already he won’t let the measure hit the floor unless the votes are there.
That's just an excerpt. Wiggly, this is why I really think you should tell your story! NY Assemblywoman who had voted against it in 2007 changed her vote yesterday because of a lesbian couple who lived down the block from her. They told the Assemblywoman their plight and she understood.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 01:19 AM   #38
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

Quote:
Originally Posted by In The Zone View Post
Excellent article breaking down the NY Senate math. 25 Democrats have openly approved the bill along with 1 Republican. That is 26. 6 votes need to be had. (This article says the Lt. Governor is not used, even though Malcolm Smith could be. I'll have to find the actual answer.) My Senator is, of course, the Republican Senate Minority Leader.

http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/56449/



That's just an excerpt. Wiggly, this is why I really think you should tell your story! NY Assemblywoman who had voted against it in 2007 changed her vote yesterday because of a lesbian couple who lived down the block from her. They told the Assemblywoman their plight and she understood.
It's examples like these which illustrate why primaries are so important for the progressive movement. Democrats like Diaz should've been primaried out of office a long time ago--they have no business winning office in NYC.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #39
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

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It's examples like these which illustrate why primaries are so important for the progressive movement. Democrats like Diaz should've been primaried out of office a long time ago--they have no business winning office in NYC.
Yep. I have no idea why anyone would not run against him. He could easily be very vulnerable.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 07:14 PM   #40
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

New Hampshire's Governor has agreed to sign the bill if language is corrected to make it more similar to Connecticut's marriage law. Now it is on the Legislature to revise it and pass it.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 06:14 AM   #41
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

>> ASIAONE / NEWS / ASIAONE NEWS / WORLD / STORY

New York state split over gay marriage: poll
Fri, May 15, 2009
AFP




NEW YORK, USA - The debate over gay marriage has split public opinion in New York down the middle, according to a statewide poll out Thursday.

The poll comes days after New York's state legislature on Tuesday approved a law allowing gay weddings, a measure that now faces a much tougher reading in the upper house.

The poll by Quinnipiac University shows that 46 percent of New York state voters opposed same-sex marriage, while 46 percent supported it.

Yet 63 percent do not believe that same-sex marriages are a threat to traditional marriage, and 60 percent believe that a homosexual couple should be able to adopt children.

Broken down by race, African-Americans largely oppose gay marriage - 57 percent against 35 percent that support it - while whites are slightly in favor, 47 percent to 45 percent.

The party divide is also marked, with 59 percent of Democrats supporting gay marriage and 34 percent opposing it, while 68 percent of Republicans oppose the measure, with 24 percent supporting.

Fifty-eight percent of New Yorkers between the ages of 18 and 34 support gay marriage, but that support drops to 42 percent for those between the ages of 34 and 54, and drops further to 31 percent for those above the age of 55.

The general results however contrast sharply with a Quinnipiac poll five years ago, which showed a clear majority - 55 percent - opposed gay marriage, and only 37 percent supported it.

The poll, which has a 1.8 percent margin of error, was carried out between May 5-11 among 2,828 voters registered in New York state.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #42
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

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>> Broken down by race, African-Americans largely oppose gay marriage - 57 percent against 35 percent that support it - while whites are slightly in favor, 47 percent to 45 percent.
Why is that? Is it because generally speaking african-americans are more 'chuchy' than the overall general white population?

I know this was a poll of only around 2-3 thousand new yorkers, but this trend seems to be quite common.

Why, as a group are african americans more opposed to letting gays marry?
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Old May 15th, 2009, 11:14 AM   #43
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

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Why is that? Is it because generally speaking african-americans are more 'chuchy' than the overall general white population?

I know this was a poll of only around 2-3 thousand new yorkers, but this trend seems to be quite common.

Why, as a group are african americans more opposed to letting gays marry?
Well I'm not sure if this is entirely correct. But let's say it is for now, it could be because a high percentage of African Americans attend some church as opposed to the general white population. So basically it comes down to religion rather than "race" or "culture". Of course, historically Christianity and the various churches have played a very important role in the African American communities and one of the fundamental things is being against gay marriage or rather preserving the traditional and conservative views of marriage. This is why attacking those who oppose gay marriage is not a simple, "you're homophobic" argument.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 11:21 AM   #44
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

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Well I'm not sure if this is entirely correct. But let's say it is for now, it could be because a high percentage of African Americans attend some church as opposed to the general white population. So basically it comes down to religion rather than "race" or "culture". Of course, historically Christianity and the various churches have played a very important role in the African American communities and one of the fundamental things is being against gay marriage or rather preserving the traditional and conservative views of marriage. This is why attacking those who oppose gay marriage is not a simple, "you're homophobic" argument.
Homophobia that stems from religion is still homophobia Sam. If someone bashes you and whilst doing so is spouting off 'god hates fags' rhetoric, that is still homophobia even if they are doing from a sincere belief that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of god.

My best guess was as you said though, that a large % of african americans attend church regularly so that would be an explanation...
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Old May 15th, 2009, 11:25 AM   #45
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Re: US Gay Marriage: 5 down, 45 to go: NH Awaiting Signature; Bill Passes NY Assembly

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Originally Posted by Philbo View Post
Why is that? Is it because generally speaking african-americans are more 'chuchy' than the overall general white population?

I know this was a poll of only around 2-3 thousand new yorkers, but this trend seems to be quite common.

Why, as a group are african americans more opposed to letting gays marry?
Religion is one factor.

Another factor, I believe, is the emphasis on machismo in black culture (and probably in latino culture too, but no stats of latino support for homosexuality here.) I want to be very careful here and state that IMO this emphasis is not inherent within these cultures. But machismo as an ideal arises in impoverished underprivileged groups in general, probably as a reaction to dealing with an "inferiority complex" socially. Machismo substitutes physical and behavioural strength where social status/power fails.

And obviously since machismo is precisely the high valuation of excessive masculinity, homosexuality as the embodiment of femininity in males is shunned because it is the antithesis of the machismo ideal.
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