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Old Jun 30th, 2008, 06:25 AM   #1
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J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Very interesting video, he surely hits the nail there...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vid...ed&eref=truveo
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Old Jun 30th, 2008, 05:57 PM   #2
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

I love Monica and appreciate the point he's making, but 25 Slams? 30 Slams? That's really pushing it. Really.
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Old Jul 3rd, 2008, 08:40 PM   #3
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Is it? Court had 24 and Seles had even a greater start in her career, so... Nevertheless I don't think Seles would have played that long to win that much, a record of around 20 GS titles would be realistic.
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Old Jul 4th, 2008, 12:24 PM   #4
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Great video. Good to see that no matter how much propaganda Grafanatics put out there about her head to head with Monica pre-stabbing, that to the average fan, Monica had toppled Steffi as the dominant player.

The way Grafanatics try to rewrite history is mind boggling.
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Old Jul 8th, 2008, 02:09 PM   #5
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

I don't think it's safe to assume that she would have gone on winning 3 Slams a year endlessly. 30 Slams is really pushing it. Even 25 Slams is a strech. Consider how punishing Monica's game style is and the injuries she suffered when she returned.



Obviously, Steffi's numbers got inflated big time as a result of the attack, so that more or less puts her aside in the GOAT discussions, just like it does Monica. It's sad it turned out that way, but what can one do. It was a tragedy that affected both tremendously. Seles literally, but Steffi too as it made her achievements post 1993 questionable.

GOAT is really between Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova. Court edging the divine MN by a couple of inches. And there's Chris Evert and Helen Wills Moody ofcourse. Graf, Seles, and BJK are a tier lower.
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Old Jul 8th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #6
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Quote:
Obviously, Steffi's numbers got inflated big time as a result of the attack, so that more or less puts her aside in the GOAT discussions, just like it does Monica. It's sad it turned out that way, but what can one do. It was a tragedy that affected both tremendously. Seles literally, but Steffi too as it made her achievements post 1993 questionable.

GOAT is really between Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova. Court edging the divine MN by a couple of inches. And there's Chris Evert and Helen Wills Moody ofcourse. Graf, Seles, and BJK are a tier lower.
Hi Hingis-Seles

I have to disagree with you a bit on this one. Obviously the attack inflated Graf's slam numbers, but to what extent we'll never know. That hardly disqualifies her from GOAT consideration though, based on a few observations:

1. She had already won the Grand Slam. If you win THE Grand Slam, you are
in the conversation.

2. Yes Seles was dominant (very dominant) from 1991-93, and...? Very
dominant doesn't equal total dominance forever, as Graf's 1987-1990
demonstrates. And Steffi was still winning a slam a year during this
period, even in what her fans would call a 'slump'. That (and their head
to head) means Graf could turned the tables on Seles without the
stabbing.

3. Returning to the "inflated slam numbers" argument, let's not forget that
Court and Navratilova have weaknesses of thier own in that department.
Court has half her slams at a major not equal to the others in her era,
and Martina benefitted from a raft of injury burnouts (Austin, Jaeger) AND
played well into her mid-thirties.

As we saw with Steffi in 1999, she too could still win slams in her 30s.
What if she had kept going and caught or passed Court?
into her mid thirties.

My view is that Lenglen, Wills, Court, Navratilova, and Graf all have a claim to the GOAT. Daze and others would add Evert (based on consistency) to the list. Maureen Connolly will forever be the biggest "what if", with Seles behind her.

Anyway that's my take. To each his or her own view. I look forward to others views.
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Old Jul 8th, 2008, 06:41 PM   #7
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Court has half her slams at a major not equal to the others in her era
Methinks a strong protest from TennisVideos will be forthcoming.

Based on records alone then Lenglen and Wills-Moody would be at the top but I just find it impossible to judge the relative strength of pre-WWII tennis.

No point in arguing uselessly because you could make an argument for a number of players and each person's would be equally valid.

On the basis that Little Mo played enough during her period at the top and was continually dominant then my top 5 is:

1 Connolly
2 Court
3 Graf
4 Navratilova
5 Evert

You can't change history and - unfortunately - what "might have happened" cannot really be of relevance so maybe Mo is lucky but.....

Ha Seles NOT returned to the game then she would have been vying for a top spot.
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Old Jul 8th, 2008, 07:29 PM   #8
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Mo must have been something else to see-more than one person who saw her said she would have wiped the floor with Court, King, Chnssie and Martina. Everyone has biases though, so who knows?

Quote:
Posted by Chris Whiteside Had Seles NOT returned to the game then she would have been vying for a top spot.
I do think her status would be much higher had she never returned. Thankfully for her fans and for Monica's happiness she did return though. The only thing ever lacking was a Wimbledon crown. The irony is with all the changes in style and the grass you would have to give Seles a good shot at winning a Wimbledon if she were playing in this era. Glorious as the Rafa-Federer final was the style of play wouldn't have been possible in the 1990s.

Regarding Court---I'll be ducking for cover when TennisVideos arrives-LOL
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Old Jul 9th, 2008, 02:13 PM   #9
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Hi Rollo.

It's astounding how I read your posts as well as Chris' and find myself in complete agreement with what I'm reading. It's not that I disagree with the point either one of you is making.

I have stated before that Steffi Graf was a unique player and a tremendous champion of the sport. I still stand by that and her record attests to it, stabbing or no stabbing. And yet, we can not ignore what happened in Hamburg when discussing Steffi Graf's tennis career. No other player in the history of the sport had their rival taken out in such a manner, thankfully. It's a burden Steffi has had to bear, unfortunately. As Chris Evert once put it (and I paraphrase), "It's like with me and Martina, if Martina had gotten stabbed, I could have won 30 Slams."

The stabbing was a pre-meditated act of evil with the intent of altering tennis history, which it did. The degree of success to which it altered tennis history, we'll never know, but we do know that it did change the course of women's tennis and destroyed a great champion.

Having said that, it's this very stabbing (the central focus in so many GOAT debates and discussions), which in the end reminds us that in the end, these records are just that: merely records. In the grand scheme of things, they're meaningless.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts on the subject.
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Old Jul 10th, 2008, 04:20 AM   #10
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

As to who would have continued to be #1 after April 30, 1993, Seles or Graf, the two most predictive facts are:

1) Seles was already #1 and had been, I believe, for over two years. She had won three of four grand slams in both 1991 and 1992. She won the 1993 Australian Open, beating Graf.

2) Seles was 19 years old. Graf was nearly 24. The pundits were commenting on how rapidly Seles was improving at the time. Mary Carrillo stated during the 1993 AO final that Monica was "improving by the hour". She was physically getting stonger and her serve was becoming a weapon. Who was more likely to get stronger over the next few years, Graf or Seles? Clearly Seles.

Of course it's very easy to make assumptions that Seles would have declined and Graf would have improved, but the above facts indicate that this would have been unlikely without help from Gunther Parche.
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Old Jul 10th, 2008, 04:35 AM   #11
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
On the basis that Little Mo played enough during her period at the top and was continually dominant then my top 5 is:

1 Connolly
2 Court
3 Graf
4 Navratilova
5 Evert

You can't change history and - unfortunately - what "might have happened" cannot really be of relevance so maybe Mo is lucky but.....

Ha Seles NOT returned to the game then she would have been vying for a top spot.
Parche's goal, by his own admission, was to remove Monica Seles from no.1, and specifically, in order to reinstate Steffi Graf at the top. Quite the predicament, no? You see, if Seles was in a car accident, instead of getting stabbed, and had to sit out 2 and a half years, the situation would be completely different. She would be the victim of a random accident... like Maureen Connolly's.

Like Muster too - nobody says that Courier would never have won 2 French Open titles had Muster not been hit by a car. The stabbing was a premeditated act of malice designed to rob an athlete of her talent. *Beeg* difference.
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Old Jul 14th, 2008, 02:32 PM   #12
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

Chris, Seles was almost as dominant as Connolly, so both should be in the top 5 or none of them should be, I mean, they won the same amount of major titles in the same amount of years, both at the beginning of their careers.
Rollo, when Graf's dominance ended in early 90, her game was stagnating, it wasn't a slump, it was just that other players improved, and many players who didn't even play when Graf was number one, stormed into the top 10 (Seles, Sanchez, Capriati). Before Seles got attacked she had improved all the time, her game in early 93 was so much better than in 1991 for instance. Also, women's Tennis lacked of competition from mid 93 on, players who beat Seles in previous years would never have done so again (Sabatini, Capriati, Navratilova). Also, Sanchez became number one during Seles' absence, and this would have NEVER happend without Hamburg. One of the clearest indicators that Seles' dominance would have continued IMO.
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Old Jul 14th, 2008, 06:58 PM   #13
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

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Originally Posted by Matchpoint down View Post
Chris, Seles was almost as dominant as Connolly, so both should be in the top 5 or none of them should be, I mean, they won the same amount of major titles in the same amount of years, both at the beginning of their careers.
I see it differently. After losing early at her first two Slams Maureen was never beaten again before her enforced retirement - it's a judgement call how you put this into perspective. The margins at the top are slim and like it or not the fact that Monica never won Wimbledon is a serious drawback in comparing records.

Unfortunately too the post-1996 record does somewhat take the gloss of Monica's record.
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Old Jul 15th, 2008, 02:32 PM   #14
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

I agree, had Seles not comeback she would be regarded higher, no matter that coming back at all in this case was a great achievement. On the other hand: Seles did come back with a GS title, Connolly did not.
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Old Jul 15th, 2008, 06:51 PM   #15
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Re: J.Wertheim, Moments that changed the game

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I agree, had Seles not comeback she would be regarded higher, no matter that coming back at all in this case was a great achievement. On the other hand: Seles did come back with a GS title, Connolly did not
There are many points of comparison between Seles and Little Mo, but acheivement-wise Connolly is a good yardstick ahead. Mo dominated on every surface-Seles dominated every surface but grass, where she never won a slam. THE Grand Slam puts Mo ahead. Monica had at least two good shots at a Wimbledon-1990 and 1992. One wonders if she really regretted skipping it in 1991. Even after coming back Monica had opportunites to win the big W.

As far as injuries go,Connolly's injury was physically much more serious-she almost bled to death. She was never able to run at full stretch again.

One thing we can all agree on I think is that the damage to Monica was mental. How I really wish she could have really channeled some anger-at Germany, at Parche, at Steffi, at the WTA. A fully fit and major mad Seles would (IMO) have wiped the floor with the tour as early as 1994.

But that's just my opinion. Unless you win the titles all you have are "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

Last edited by Rollo : Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:58 PM.
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