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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 09:23 AM   #106
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

@ Achernar: She also benefited from some circumstances: the best players were playing half-schedules, some were injured or retired (Safina, Henin), and many were playing at a fraction of their real capabilities (Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, just to name a few). The path to the top of the ranking was wild open and Wozniacki seizes her chance.

Your whole post is wrong but this is probably the worst part. You basically put down her accomplisments as some kind of a lucky coincidence. With this kind of 'thinking' it's easy to belittle any player and argue that they merely benefited from the circumstances.

Caroline got to her ranking defeating the best players of her time. Those who were not on the tour, well...Graf also wasn't playing. Kuznetsova, Jankovic, Ivanovic are playing worse now,too,so we shall attribute success of the current elite to that, I guess.

Your breakdown of the elite makes no sense, you have mixed players of different eras some of whom never actually played each other.

Last edited by marineblue : Jul 8th, 2012 at 09:45 AM.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #107
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
"Personally, I think that she can add some weapons to her game without losing her defensive skills."

Yeah, I think thats what everyone expected. That she would add to her game while still being a defensive oriented game that she was winning with.

Instead she gave that up to be more aggressive ( especially the forehand side).

But winning is the most important thing, and she doesnt do that anymore. No titles and mostly early round losses.

She is so far from where she was. If she doesnt win this hardcourt fall, what is she going to do? That is the part I'm interested in. She's risking a lot to be more aggressive in a way that never worked for her before
If that happens I hope she realises that it's not worth to take too many risks for the sake of it. She's reached the no.1, won many tournaments and defeated the best players on the tour so she also had her 'weapons'.

The claim that she'd never win a grand slam with the old game is not true. She used to get to SF and also got to a F of a slam before. So, it was a matter of time and experience, she got to no.1 when she was only 20.

In a way, the awful result in Wimbledon is a good thing to happen. I think it will make her question a lot if making drastic changes was worth it.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 10:37 AM   #108
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by marineblue View Post
If that happens I hope she realises that it's not worth to take too many risks for the sake of it. She's reached the no.1, won many tournaments and defeated the best players on the tour so she also had her 'weapons'.

The claim that she'd never win a grand slam with the old game is not true. She used to get to SF and also got to a F of a slam before. So, it was a matter of time and experience, she got to no.1 when she was only 20.

In a way, the weak result in Wimbledon is a good thing to happen. I think it will make her question a lot if making drastic changes was worth it.
Part of Caroline's problems probably have to do with some indesiciveness. Should she trust her old game or be more agressive?....Different coaching situations every couple of months with inevitably different people whispering different things in her ears.... It all must get a bit confusing to her. I've always felt that she shouldn't leave her core game behind because it has taken her to number one and won her 18 tournaments. So I agree with the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" part of your argument.

Having said that, every player tries to improve and works on his/her weaknesses all the time. Caroline trying to add to her offensive arnenal is therefore a good idea in my opinion. It doesn't mean that she should go toe to toe in a ball bashing contest with a Sharapova which surely would be a losing strategy. But if she can for example improve her serve it already improves the offensive possibilities of her entire game. Not only would it give her more free points, it would also result in more poor-ish returns from her opponents which then sets her up for easy put aways or at least a more agressive first rallying shot, especially on the backhand which is a big weapon when she wants it to be.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #109
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by Achernar View Post
The next category would be players like Li Na, Kuznetsova, Azarenka, Kvitova in their best days. Those players would normally reach GS semifinals and being contenders for Mandatory and Premier 5 events. They should be located somewhere between 4th and 8th in the ranking.

Personally, I rank Wozniacki in the next category, with Dementieva, Zvonareva, or Radwanska. Those players would normally reach GS quarterfinals, with an occasional semifinal or a 4th round exit.
However, none of those four players have more GS semifinal appearances than Wozniacki! They have 3 semifinals (Azarenka and Li Na), or 4, like Wozniacki! But those four playes have won slam titles, of course. Most of those players also have more slam appearances than Wozniacki (Kuznetsova 41, Azarenka 27, Li Na 25, Wozniacki 22, Kvitova 17). So Caro's effectiveness in terms of SF's per slam appearance is actually among the best (only bettered by Kvitova):

Semifinals per GS appearance (percentage)

Code:
Player       GS semifinals  GS appearances      %

Kvitova            4              17           23.5
Wozniacki          4              22           18.2
Li Na              3              25           12.0
Azarenka           3              27           11.1
Kuznetsova         4              41            9.8
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 01:13 PM   #110
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
Part of Caroline's problems probably have to do with some indesiciveness. Should she trust her old game or be more agressive?....Different coaching situations every couple of months with inevitably different people whispering different things in her ears.... It all must get a bit confusing to her. I've always felt that she shouldn't leave her core game behind because it has taken her to number one and won her 18 tournaments. So I agree with the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" part of your argument.

Having said that, every player tries to improve and works on his/her weaknesses all the time. Caroline trying to add to her offensive arnenal is therefore a good idea in my opinion. It doesn't mean that she should go toe to toe in a ball bashing contest with a Sharapova which surely would be a losing strategy. But if she can for example improve her serve it already improves the offensive possibilities of her entire game. Not only would it give her more free points, it would also result in more poor-ish returns from her opponents which then sets her up for easy put aways or at least a more agressive first rallying shot, especially on the backhand which is a big weapon when she wants it to be.
I agree,if she improved her serve that would help her a lot. In a match with Serena it helped her a lot when she needed to get ahead of the opponent.
And nowadays, when she loses leads so quickly good serve is very much needed.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #111
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by marineblue View Post
@ Achernar: She also benefited from some circumstances: the best players were playing half-schedules, some were injured or retired (Safina, Henin), and many were playing at a fraction of their real capabilities (Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, just to name a few). The path to the top of the ranking was wild open and Wozniacki seizes her chance.

Your whole post is wrong but this is probably the worst part. You basically put down her accomplisments as some kind of a lucky coincidence. With this kind of 'thinking' it's easy to belittle any player and argue that they merely benefited from the circumstances.

Caroline got to her ranking defeating the best players of her time. Those who were not on the tour, well...Graf also wasn't playing. Kuznetsova, Jankovic, Ivanovic are playing worse now,too,so we shall attribute success of the current elite to that, I guess.

Your breakdown of the elite makes no sense, you have mixed players of different eras some of whom never actually played each other.
No, I am not "put[ting] down her accomplisments (sic) as some kind of a lucky coincidence". I attribute her success to her determination, her hard working, her amazing defensive skills and, as I said, "she started to put more pressure on her opponents, occasionally coming to the net and hitting the ball very deep in the court, resulting in a flow of forced and unforced errors from the ballbashers". She also improved her service. That's being said, those skills were certainly enough to beat many players, but they were not enough against the best players. Before 2012, she was 0-3 against Serena, 0-2, against Clijsters, 2-3 against Sharapova, 1-3 against Na Li (her only win being in 2008), 4-5 against Zvonareva. She starts beating Jankovic only when the Serb becomes useless. She leads Kvitova, but she was totally dominated by her in Madrid 2010. Then she was crushed in Wimbledon and YEC. In any respectable era of tennis, you should not reach a final of GS, or even a semifinal, when you can't beat your best opponents. You're free to disagree, but I've been following tennis since Graf's era, and this era is clearly the weakest I've seen. It pains me to admit it, since I really like that sport, but most matches nowadays are just awfully bad.

As for Wozniacki's competition, would you contest that Serena and Clijsters were not playing a lot when Wozniacki starts to win everything? Would you contest that Jankovic, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic and many more were playing as bad as possible? Or the fact that Safina was injured? At that time, Wozniacki was mainly opposed to Dementieva, Radwanska, Azarenka, an half decent Kuznetsova and Zvonareva at the best moments of her career. She was the best among them, so she deserves her wins and titles. But it's not the same challenge than dominating against Serena, Venus, Clijsters and Henin, or peak Safina.

By the way, Marineblue, thanks for bad responding me. I really appreciate it. I’ve been giving opinions left and right in GM for the last 4 days, no one bad responding me. Here I am among my friends, and I received my first one. Thank you very much, my friend. I knew we are not sharing the same views about Wozniacki, but I thought we could exchange opinions in a courteous way. Did I was impolite in any way toward Wozniacki? Did I was intentionally insulting any of you? I don't think so. You can disagree with someone without bad responding him. You can even try to good responding him while disagreeing, if you think he was trying to contribute to the forum. Well, I guess I should keep my opinions for myself in the future. Or, even better, put me in you ignore list, if you can’t tolerate my opinions.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 02:33 PM   #112
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by Achernar View Post
No, I am not "put[ting] down her accomplisments (sic) as some kind of a lucky coincidence". I attribute her success to her determination, her hard working, her amazing defensive skills and, as I said, "she started to put more pressure on her opponents, occasionally coming to the net and hitting the ball very deep in the court, resulting in a flow of forced and unforced errors from the ballbashers". She also improved her service. That's being said, those skills were certainly enough to beat many players, but they were not enough against the best players. Before 2012, she was 0-3 against Serena, 0-2, against Clijsters, 2-3 against Sharapova, 1-3 against Na Li (her only win being in 2008), 4-5 against Zvonareva. She starts beating Jankovic only when the Serb becomes useless. She leads Kvitova, but she was totally dominated by her in Madrid 2010. Then she was crushed in Wimbledon and YEC. In any respectable era of tennis, you should not reach a final of GS, or even a semifinal, when you can't beat your best opponents. You're free to disagree, but I've been following tennis since Graf's era, and this era is clearly the weakest I've seen. It pains me to admit it, since I really like that sport, but most matches nowadays are just awfully bad.

As for Wozniacki's competition, would you contest that Serena and Clijsters were not playing a lot when Wozniacki starts to win everything? Would you contest that Jankovic, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic and many more were playing as bad as possible? Or the fact that Safina was injured? At that time, Wozniacki was mainly opposed to Dementieva, Radwanska, Azarenka, an half decent Kuznetsova and Zvonareva at the best moments of her career. She was the best among them, so she deserves her wins and titles. But it's not the same challenge than dominating against Serena, Venus, Clijsters and Henin, or peak Safina.

By the way, Marineblue, thanks for bad responding me. I really appreciate it. I’ve been giving opinions left and right in GM for the last 4 days, no one bad responding me. Here I am among my friends, and I received my first one. Thank you very much, my friend. I knew we are not sharing the same views about Wozniacki, but I thought we could exchange opinions in a courteous way. Did I was impolite in any way toward Wozniacki? Did I was intentionally insulting any of you? I don't think so. You can disagree with someone without bad responding him. You can even try to good responding him while disagreeing, if you think he was trying to contribute to the forum. Well, I guess I should keep my opinions for myself in the future. Or, even better, put me in you ignore list, if you can’t tolerate my opinions.
I wouldn't worry too much about being bad repped by marineblue. I had been posting here for over a year and had never been bad repped until I got one from him. Some posters are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Caroline's game at all and lash out even if there is no reason to do so. I quite enjoy spirited discussions with posters that share a different opinion than I do but not everyone feels the same.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 02:51 PM   #113
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

Quote:
Not at all U Spoke Your Mind lol, I agree with U when U said her becoming a modern Clijsters, that something I always wanted Caro to become, I also say I like Her too at least win a Slam before Her career is over
My thanks @Trey for your kind comments.

Quote:
"Personally, I think that she can add some weapons to her game without losing her defensive skills."

Yeah, I think thats what everyone expected. That she would add to her game while still being a defensive oriented game that she was winning with.
Instead she gave that up to be more aggressive ( especially the forehand side).
But winning is the most important thing, and she doesnt do that anymore. No titles and mostly early round losses.

She is so far from where she was. If she doesnt win this hardcourt fall, what is she going to do? That is the part I'm interested in. She's risking a lot to be more aggressive in a way that never worked for her before
I don’t know about that. You might be right, but I think that she’s mainly suffering from some lack of self-belief. I mean, she’s not even aggressive right now. In most matches she’s more passive than ever. That’s the reason she’s losing against all the good hitter. She’s not putting any pressure on them. She has to hit deep and to move them around. And when she tries to be aggressive, she hits everything outside the court. IMO, this shows a lack of confidence. She has to rebuild it.

Quote:
However, none of those four players have more GS semifinal appearances than Wozniacki! They have 3 semifinals (Azarenka and Li Na), or 4, like Wozniacki! But those four playes have won slam titles, of course. Most of those players also have more slam appearances than Wozniacki (Kuznetsova 41, Azarenka 27, Li Na 25, Wozniacki 22, Kvitova 17). So Caro's effectiveness in terms of SF's per slam appearance is actually among the best (only bettered by Kvitova):
Yes, I know. That's why I wrote they would normally reach. Na Li is an underachiever. It's a shame for such a talented player to have such a poor resume. Kuznetsova is a underachiever as well. And they played in a much stronger era. Azarenka has been stopped five times in GS by Serena. That's why you do not achieve as much in a strong era than in a weaker era. Normally, the players of my third category should be stopped by the bests of their era. It can't happen if they're not playing. Nonetheless, Wozniacki's achievements are quite good. Four semifinals in a whole career is already good. It's even better when you do it in a few years, as she did.

Quote:
Just a slight correction. Caroline has defeated Maria twice (once at the 2010 U.S. open and once at Indian Wells in 2011). It's fair to point out that Maria is playing much better now than she was then so who knows if the Caroline of late 2010/early 2011 would beat the Maria of today.
You're right about it, and I could never forget Wozniacki's win at the US Open. One of her best win in career. Sharapova was playing really good tennis and Wozniacki was still dominating her. However, most of the time, Sharapova's has a clear edge over her.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #114
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by DownInAHole View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about being bad repped by marineblue. I had been posting here for over a year and had never been bad repped until I got one from him. Some posters are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Caroline's game at all and lash out even if there is no reason to do so. I quite enjoy spirited discussions with posters that share a different opinion than I do but not everyone feels the same.
There is a fine line between trying to understand whats going on & being critical.
Caroline is too good a player to waste a full year when healthy. If this keeps up another year, then its like Jankovic, she's history as a top player until she proves otherwise.
A player who can go a full year winning almost half the tournaments she enters shouldnt be in this situation just 1 year later. Now the hard part is to get herself back to near where she was
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 02:56 PM   #115
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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I wouldn't worry too much about being bad repped by marineblue. I had been posting here for over a year and had never been bad repped until I got one from him. Some posters are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Caroline's game at all and lash out even if there is no reason to do so. I quite enjoy spirited discussions with posters that share a different opinion than I do but not everyone feels the same.
Thanks @DIAH. But I'll receive enough bad responses when I will go in a fight against DSanders, Sharapova's brigade and GM'trolls. I don't need it in "my" own sub-forum
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #116
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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You're right about it, and I could never forget Wozniacki's win at the US Open. One of her best win in career. Sharapova was playing really good tennis and Wozniacki was still dominating her. However, most of the time, Sharapova's has a clear edge over her.
I think the biggest difference between Maria then and Maria now is her serve. Back then she was still struggling mightily and was prone to having many double faults. I couldn't tell you the exact numbers but the Indian Wells match in particular featured some very poor serving from Maria. There were tons of double faults and second serves.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #117
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Just a friendly reminder, much of the recent discussion in this thread probably should be in Caro's main thread not here. This thread should be for ranking/YEC race info and discussion closely related to that.

I'll be deleting this post later.
My fault I'm really sorry
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 07:41 PM   #118
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by DownInAHole View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about being bad repped by marineblue. I had been posting here for over a year and had never been bad repped until I got one from him. Some posters are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Caroline's game at all and lash out even if there is no reason to do so. I quite enjoy spirited discussions with posters that share a different opinion than I do but not everyone feels the same.
Not surprising that this comes from a poster who was called out for trolling so many times ...(and not only by me)As usual,you are in denial and like to play a victim.Sob, sob poor thing.

You got bad repped by me and scolded by others in the past for the same type of disrespectful comments as our new 'fan' posted here. Memory loss,huh?

It's not because 'some posters are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Caroline's game'. The reason is that fans who truly support Caroline like myself are fed up with reading countless disrespectful comments on her achievements and putting a negative spin on anything related to her posted over and over again by the certain individuals. Comments which are often identical with what we read in GM from the most ardent Wozniacki haters.

I'm sure that all this won't go through your system so I'll try it in a simpler way:
Would you come up to a player asking for an autograph saying something like this:

"Hi,you are such an over-achiever! I do not think you are a part of the elite. In fact,you got where you did because a lot of other players were sick or injured. I was not happy when I saw you getting to no.1 and if you played XYZ at their best you'd surely lose.Now, may I have your autograph, please?"

Last edited by marineblue : Jul 8th, 2012 at 07:57 PM.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #119
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

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Originally Posted by Achernar View Post
No, I am not "put[ting] down her accomplisments (sic) as some kind of a lucky coincidence". I attribute her success to her determination, her hard working, her amazing defensive skills and, as I said, "she started to put more pressure on her opponents, occasionally coming to the net and hitting the ball very deep in the court, resulting in a flow of forced and unforced errors from the ballbashers". She also improved her service. That's being said, those skills were certainly enough to beat many players, but they were not enough against the best players. Before 2012, she was 0-3 against Serena, 0-2, against Clijsters, 2-3 against Sharapova, 1-3 against Na Li (her only win being in 2008), 4-5 against Zvonareva. She starts beating Jankovic only when the Serb becomes useless. She leads Kvitova, but she was totally dominated by her in Madrid 2010. Then she was crushed in Wimbledon and YEC. In any respectable era of tennis, you should not reach a final of GS, or even a semifinal, when you can't beat your best opponents. You're free to disagree, but I've been following tennis since Graf's era, and this era is clearly the weakest I've seen. It pains me to admit it, since I really like that sport, but most matches nowadays are just awfully bad.

As for Wozniacki's competition, would you contest that Serena and Clijsters were not playing a lot when Wozniacki starts to win everything? Would you contest that Jankovic, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic and many more were playing as bad as possible? Or the fact that Safina was injured? At that time, Wozniacki was mainly opposed to Dementieva, Radwanska, Azarenka, an half decent Kuznetsova and Zvonareva at the best moments of her career. She was the best among them, so she deserves her wins and titles. But it's not the same challenge than dominating against Serena, Venus, Clijsters and Henin, or peak Safina.

By the way, Marineblue, thanks for bad responding me. I really appreciate it. I’ve been giving opinions left and right in GM for the last 4 days, no one bad responding me. Here I am among my friends, and I received my first one. Thank you very much, my friend. I knew we are not sharing the same views about Wozniacki, but I thought we could exchange opinions in a courteous way. Did I was impolite in any way toward Wozniacki? Did I was intentionally insulting any of you? I don't think so. You can disagree with someone without bad responding him. You can even try to good responding him while disagreeing, if you think he was trying to contribute to the forum. Well, I guess I should keep my opinions for myself in the future. Or, even better, put me in you ignore list, if you can’t tolerate my opinions.
You have put her down, I posted your quote so you are selectively choosing only what wasn't that bad in your post.
I know who was and was not playing when Caroline got to the top. I am not 'contesting' it. And this is the point. They were not playing against her so to insinuate that she'd have no chance to beat them had they met is actually putting her down. You cannot tell how things would pan out if the players who were retired/injured were playing unless they were actually out there playing and faced Caroline. As I said before, with this kind of logic it's easy to belittle every player.

As far as the bad rep, you are welcome. I feel you deserved one. We've had enough intrusions in the forum and also people who only claim to be fans until you actually read their posts. If you post belittling and factually wrong(!) claims about a player in their fan forum don't expect a warm welcome. At least not from me.

Last edited by marineblue : Jul 8th, 2012 at 07:56 PM.
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Old Jul 8th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #120
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Re: Caroline's Ranking Breakdown

I dont think Serena or Kim would have held Caroline off for #1 when she was winning 9 of 19 tournaments. Kim would have had #1 a few more weeks, so would Serena, but they're older & when Caroline was 3000 points in first, they would be ranked behind her.

But it is true that everyone who said Caroline was a weak #1 and would not have been #1 if other players were healthy are all having the last laugh now.
Caroline's recent results undermine what she accomplished. Because players just dont give up a spot at the top like she did, when healthy, unless they're just not good enough to be there
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