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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 03:07 AM   #1
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Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

In the latest installment, he decline to judge gay people in religious terms, using that disarming language " Who am I to do judge ..."
It has been reported this had caused a heated and spirited debate among catholics.

Those who take exception at the Pope seemingly approval of gay life style, and other against it.
The Pope position on putting emphasis on the poor in his papacy is already causing some discomfort among conservative Catholics.
And now this??
Quote:
On Gay Priests, Pope Francis Asks, ‘Who Am I to Judge?’


ROME — For generations, homosexuality has largely been a taboo topic for the Vatican, ignored altogether or treated as “an intrinsic moral evil,” in the words of the previous pope.

In that context, brief remarks by Pope Francis suggesting that he would not judge priests for their sexual orientation, made aboard the papal airplane on the way back from his first foreign trip, to Brazil, resonated through the church. Never veering from church doctrine opposing homosexuality, Francis did strike a more compassionate tone than that of his predecessors, some of whom had largely avoided even saying the more colloquial “gay.”

“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis told reporters, speaking in Italian but using the English word “gay.”
Francis’s words could not have been more different from those of Benedict XVI, who in 2005 wrote that homosexuality was “a strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil,” and an “objective disorder.” The church document said that men with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” should not become priests.

Vatican experts were quick to point out that Francis was not suggesting that the priests or anyone else should act on their homosexual tendencies, which the church considers a sin. But the fact that he made such comments — and used the word “gay” — was nevertheless revolutionary, and likely to generate significant discussion in local dioceses, where bishops are divided over whether to accept priests who are gay but celibate.

“It’s not a great opening in terms of contents, but the fact that he talked about it that way is a great novelty,” said Paolo Rodari, a Vatican expert at the Italian daily La Repubblica. Francis would probably agree with Benedict’s writings on homosexuality, he added, “but it doesn’t interest him.”
“It interests him to say that the problem in the end isn’t if someone has this tendency, the important thing is to live in the light of God,” Mr. Rodari said. “Said by a pope, it’s enormous.”

Francis also told reporters that while Pope John Paul II had definitively closed the door to female priests, he sought a “theology of women” and a greater role for them in Catholic life, news reports said.

The pope’s comments on homosexuals and women in the church were yet another sign of the different directions from which Benedict and Francis approach doctrine. While Benedict, the shy theologian, focused more on ethics and advocated a more pure church, even if it might end up being smaller, Francis was elected for his belief that the Catholic Church must engage in dialogue with the world — even with those it disagrees with — if it wants to stay vibrant and relevant.

“At a certain point, tone becomes substance if it’s seen as revitalizing the prospects of the church,” said John L. Allen, Jr., a Vatican expert at The National Catholic Reporter.
In Benedict’s more subdued 2007 visit to Brazil, where Evangelical churches are making rapid inroads in the Catholic majority, he delivered speeches to bishops about how to respond to postmodern society.

In contrast, Francis spoke on the beach, engaged with the masses and was greeted like a rock star by followers entranced by his approachable style and homespun folksy adages. (“You can always add more water to the beans,” he said at one point.)
More than a million people gathered for an open-air Mass on Copacabana Beach on Sunday. At one event, bishops danced on stage to upbeat music. The spectacle was clearly aimed at competing with Evangelical churches that have a more “pop” style.

“We can see the figure of Peter so near to us,” said Milena Rocha, 20, a Brazilian student who slept on the beach Saturday night along with thousands of others in a vigil before the pope’s final Mass on Sunday, comparing Francis to St. Peter.
She said that the vigil, in which many camped on the sands on pieces of cardboard, showed the energy that Francis was bringing to the church in Brazil, which has more Catholics than any other country, an estimated 123 million.

Despite missteps by organizers, including one that compromised security, the visit unfolded peacefully, giving many people a chance to glimpse or even embrace Francis.
“This pope keeps renewing the church,” said Claudia Brandão, 30, a housewife who traveled from Angola with her 9-month-old daughter.

....

Read more http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/wo...ests.html?_r=0
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 05:07 AM   #2
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

i know alot wont agree with me but i think its a great start, its not easy to change Hundreds of years of history.

i do hope that this is small strp in a long Journey, i like him he is open.

i will never forget a few years ago when they wanted to hold the gay parade in jerusalem something amazing (ugly) happened, u saw a rabbi, Cuddy and priest totally join together to Prevent it, they were together like all of them are bff's

it didnt work.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #3
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

I think it's great he said that.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #4
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

i agree, I hope he will continue
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #5
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

It's a start. A long way to go still, but the fact that he's already gone far further than any of his predecessors on this point is encouraging. The Vatican was never going to go from damning gays to eternal hellfire to full-on acceptance in one step.

A logical next step is send a strong message to African Catholics that persecution of gays in their own countries is evil and has to stop.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #6
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

I too agree with his position; BUT aren't you guys concerned that he risks alienating the conservative faction of the church?

Form what I read, these comments have caused a fault line in the rank of catholic who took it to Twitter.
The conservatives, taking exception to his comments; and progressives, hailing them.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #7
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

i im not bc at the end of the day he is the pope and they are not so he can change things if they will want it or not, its not like they can fire him
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 12:09 PM   #8
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

^I'm an atheist, why would I be afraid that a relatively progressive pope is alienating conservative catholics? In any case, conservative popes have been alienating progressives for decades (well, centuries actually).
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #9
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
I too agree with his position; BUT aren't you guys concerned that he risks alienating the conservative faction of the church?

Form what I read, these comments have caused a fault line in the rank of catholic who took it to Twitter.
The conservatives, taking exception to his comments; and progressives, hailing them.
who cares? as far as i'm concerned, conservative factions within any religion aren't there to be appeased. the pope's words aren't exactly revolutionary, and his past is somewhat chequered when it comes to matters of progressive v conservative (not talking just about gay rights here), but it is a good start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
^I'm an atheist, why would I be afraid that a relatively progressive pope is alienating conservative catholics? In any case, conservative popes have been alienating progressives for decades (well, centuries actually).
exactly
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 02:40 PM   #10
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

His position is straight out of the New Testament, a refreshing change from many religious leaders.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 03:12 PM   #11
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
It's a start. A long way to go still, but the fact that he's already gone far further than any of his predecessors on this point is encouraging. The Vatican was never going to go from damning gays to eternal hellfire to full-on acceptance in one step.

A logical next step is send a strong message to African Catholics that persecution of gays in their own countries is evil and has to stop.
A lot of that African persecution is from non-Catholic Christians. Like how in Latin America only the Protestant countries continue to criminalise homosexuality.

I like how this pope is his own man, doing his own thing however is the current catholic position on homosexuality that different from most religions like Islam, Judaism and Protestant churches. Apart from the odd Protestant church don't most western religions condemn homosexuality anyway??


I like this Pope, the last one sucked and the previous one to that is highly overrated IMO.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #12
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

It is a start. Only a small step, but a start non the less.
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #13
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punky View Post
i im not bc at the end of the day he is the pope and they are not so he can change things if they will want it or not, its not like they can fire him
There was a pope in the 70s who tried to investigate corruption. He had a sudden death
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 05:44 PM   #14
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

I'm not sure if I posted this here, but we all need to commit ourselves to JESUS. We can spend all day pointing at each others faults. I am not sure if I posted this video, but it is when Jesus came to me, and i detail other important spirituals stuff.

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snbkTbjkjSs[/VIDEO]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snbkTbjkjSs
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Old Jul 30th, 2013, 05:54 PM   #15
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Re: Pope Francis Continues to Push The Envelope W/O Trying: "Who Am I to Judge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
A lot of that African persecution is from non-Catholic Christians. Like how in Latin America only the Protestant countries continue to criminalise homosexuality.

I like how this pope is his own man, doing his own thing however is the current catholic position on homosexuality that different from most religions like Islam, Judaism and Protestant churches. Apart from the odd Protestant church don't most western religions condemn homosexuality anyway??


I like this Pope, the last one sucked and the previous one to that is highly overrated IMO.
I like JPII's politics in a lot of ways, but not his theology.
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