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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 12:16 AM   #1
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The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

Now that this case emerging in national spotlight, it is time to give it its own thread.

================================================== ===================================


Tamir Rice's Mom Was Torn Between Shot Son and Detained Daughter








The mother of a 12-year-old boy shot dead last month by Cleveland police after he was seen holding a toy gun said today the most agonizing moment was when she had to decide whether to go with her injured son to the hospital or stay at the recreation center playground to figure out why her daughter was in the back seat of a police car.


"I asked the police to let my daughter go and they wouldn't at that time and I asked them, 'What's going on?' But they wasn't telling me anything, just saying, 'Calm down, calm down," Samaria Rice said a news conference today, adding that her daughter told her later that police had tackled her before handcuffing her and placing in the back of the their vehicle near Tamir Rice’s body.


"I knew she was crying for me but I couldn’t see her hands," Rice said of her 14-year-old daughter, who was inside the rec center at the time of the shooting.



The question for her: “Whether I stay with the 14 year old or do I go with the 12 year old? Of course, I go with the 12-year-old,” she said.

The Cleveland Police Department has not responded to ABC News’ requests from comment.

Rice also said a child from the playground where her son was shot ran to her home to tell her a police officer had fired at her son Tamir.

"I really thought they was playing, like joking around, and I saw the seriousness in their face," she said of how she realized the boys who broke the news were not kidding




She said she ran to the scene of the shooting at a recreation center less than 100 yards from her home.

"I went charging and yelling and everything at the police because they wouldn't let me through," she said.

"They made me sit in the front of the ambulance truck like I was a passenger," she said.

Tamir's father, Leonard Warner, was at her side during the news conference this morning but chose not to make a statement.

One of the family's biggest complaints has been that police officers stood nearby and did not administer aide to Tamir for several minutes after the shooting.

The news conference came after Rice first spoke with ABC News earlier this morning and reiterated her wish to see both officers convicted, though only one of them firing the fatal shots.


Attorney Benjamin Crump, who has previously worked with the families of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, said that there should be no need for a grand jury in this case.


The process of having evidence evaluated by a secret grand jury has come under fire recently after two situations involving police altercations-- one in Ferguson, Missouri and another in Staten Island, New York-- both resulted in no indictments for any of the police officers involved.


"There is nothing written anywhere in the law that police officers are going to be treated any different than any other," Crump said today.


"When there is probable cause, you don't have to have a grand jury. You can do what the Constitution says and charge the people," he said.



source: http://abcnews.go.com/US/tamir-rices...ry?id=27447386
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #2
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

The Conversation Black Parents Have With Their Kids About Cops







Black parents say they've long known they have to have a different conversation than their white counterparts when it comes to talking about police with their children.


As the nation struggles with recent deaths of black males at the hands of white police officers, that conversation is more important than ever, black parents like Roland Nicholson say.

A lobbyist in Washington, D.C., Nicholson told ABC News today that ever since his sons were adolescents, he has been educating them about how to deal with law enforcement.


"I tell them, when you're in the car and a white police officer pulls you over, put your hands on the dashboard or the steering wheel," he said of his sons, who are biracial



"Saying, 'Sir' helps. Hands visible helps. Even if you've got a Ph.D. from Harvard," he added. "It's about survival. I describe it as ... making him feel at that time he's in charge."


New Yorker Eric Garner died this summer when a police officer put him in a chokehold after stopping to arrest him for selling "loosie" cigarettes. About a month later in Ferguson, Missouri, a police officer shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown after a physical struggle. And last month, a Cleveland cop fatally shot a 12-year-old boy who was playing with a fake gun



While each case is different, there is one constant that has captivated the nation, sparking protests about police brutality and race across the country: the victim was black and unarmed, and the police officer is white.


"This is not Mississippi in 1960, but something is still not right," Nicholson said. "You look at some corner offices -- you look at the Oval office -- and you think, we've moved past a lot of things. And we just haven't."




Nicholson's youngest son is now 18 -- the same age as Michael Brown -- and drives a BMW.

"Because he is so young, he does get pulled over," he said. "I tell him, 'You don't have to put your hands up and say don't shoot, but you do need to make it clear to him [the police officer] that they're visible."


He said his sons had questions when they learned that the officer who shot Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old Cleveland boy, had records of emotional maturity issues and "dismal" performance in firearms training, according to the personnel file released by his former employer.


"They [his sons] said, 'How did he get that job?' I said that's a slip-up in the system that we have to be prepared for," Nicholson said.

Tanya Cain, an African-American mom in New Jersey, told ABC News she also struggles with what to say to her 12-year-old son, who's the same age as Tamir Rice.

She recalled telling him to pull down his hood while they were at the mall shopping, and making him change when he was heading to basketball practice in a plain white T-shirt.




"The white T-shirt was no big deal to him, but it was a big deal to me," Cain said. "It's another conversation: You're never going to walk out of the house with a plain undershirt like that. “There's a perception of young black kids who walk around with baggy jeans and a white T-shirt, an undershirt. There's a negative connotation. And we don't want to project that, whether it's fair or not. So I made him go upstairs and change."



Tiersa McQueen of Plano, Texas, told ABC News she hopes her three black sons are too young to have to worry about police interactions, but she's fearful for when they're older.


"My husband and I feel it's important to educate our children on how to handle themselves when they are confronted by police officers," she said. "The best thing you can do is just avoid police altercations in the first place.

"I can't take the black skin off of them."



Even New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio has said he struggles with how to tell his biracial son Dante to deal with police.

"What parents have done for decades who have children of color, especially young men of color, is train them to be very careful when they have a connection with a police officer," de Blasio said on ABC's "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos.


"It's different for a white child," de Blasio said. "That's just the reality in this country. And with Dante, very early on with my son, we said, look, if a police officer stops you, do everything he tells you to do, don't move suddenly, don't reach for your cellphone, because we knew, sadly, there's a greater chance it might be misinterpreted if it was a young man of color."


The mayor also brought up his son at an earlier press conference where he discussed a new training program to reform the NYPD. Those comments angered police union leaders.


"What police officers felt yesterday after that press conference is that they were thrown under the bus," said Patrick Lynch, the head of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, according to The Associated Press. "If the mayor wants to change policies, and wants us to stand down against crime, then say that."




source: http://abcnews.go.com/US/conversatio...ry?id=27446833
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #3
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

Quote:
One of the family's biggest complaints has been that police officers stood nearby and did not administer aide to Tamir for several minutes after the shooting.
This charge was also made from Garner case


Quote:
Attorney Benjamin Crump, who has previously worked with the families of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, said that there should be no need for a grand jury in this case.


The process of having evidence evaluated by a secret grand jury has come under fire recently after two situations involving police altercations-- one in Ferguson, Missouri and another in Staten Island, New York-- both resulted in no indictments for any of the police officers involved.


"There is nothing written anywhere in the law that police officers are going to be treated any different than any other," Crump said today.


"When there is probable cause, you don't have to have a grand jury. You can do what the Constitution says and charge the people," he said.
Apparently, no decision has been made to take the case to a grand jury, so there is still hope.
If it goes to grand jury, forget it. The police side will of the story will be given move weight.
Testimonies that do not help the police will be deemed non-credible and dismissed.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 03:50 PM   #4
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Now that this case emerging in national spotlight, it is time to give it its own thread.
Can't get enough huh?
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #5
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
The Conversation Black Parents Have With Their Kids About Cops
I dunno where they get the idea that white kids don't get the same advice about dealing with cops. Many white kids are raised to respect cops - be polite, don't talk back, do exactly what they tell you to.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 04:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pov View Post
Can't get enough huh?


Are you not the OP of the latest "no indictment" thread?
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 06:43 PM   #7
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by pov View Post
I dunno where they get the idea that white kids don't get the same advice about dealing with cops. Many white kids are raised to respect cops - be polite, don't talk back, do exactly what they tell you to.
Are you doing this on purpose?
For black parents, the conversation goes well beyond what you know.
I can't believe you are asking that question this late in the game.

For a refresher course, when you watch TV, pay attention as black guests or anchor persons tell the white host the kind of conversation their parent had with them.
Sometime the white host and would say, my parents and I never went to that length. We always just assume the police is there to protect us.

You are coming close to qualifying for this
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pov View Post
Can't get enough huh?
This is a misdirected question.
it should go to the people doing the killing?

And frankly, it should practical and convenient for folks who to draw a distinction solely to justify the killing.
They don't have to keep arguing that this case is different from Traynon killing, Micahel Brown killing,
Jordan Davis killing, Eric Garner killing, future killings to come in upcoming weeks.

They can't just go right ahead and make the "justified homicide" argument
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 07:08 PM   #8
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by pov View Post
I dunno where they get the idea that white kids don't get the same advice about dealing with cops. Many white kids are raised to respect cops - be polite, don't talk back, do exactly what they tell you to.
Very true. Parents need to pay attention.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 08:47 PM   #9
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

This is a pretty good conversation, so far. Much better than what mostly consists of hyperbole, finger pointing, and outright idiocy in some other threads.

It's unrealistic to believe that people of color, particularly young black men, do not have radically different experiences with the police than white people have. Young black men and people who love them have learned to be wary and distrustful of the police. If you're black in America you can expect to be treated more aggressively by the police, regardless of any other factors. The treatment black Americans receive in our criminal justice system, from encounters with police to treatment by the courts, is discriminatory and grossly unfair. This is not because the police, prosecutors and judges are, by and large, bad people. The problems are institutional.

It's also unrealistic to believe that the police have not learned to be especially wary and distrustful of young black men. In the U.S. young black men commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than the general population. Black people comprise 13.2 percent of the population, yet commit 49.4% of the murders, 54.9% of the robberies, 34.1% of the aggravated assaults and 38.5% of the overall violent crimes in the U.S. This is not because black people are inherently violent or criminally inclined, the problems are systemic. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...decoverviewpdf

These are both demonstrable facts, but one of them is a truth that most people who have chosen one side or the other in the current debate about race and law enforcement don't want to face. Which truth you don't want to face depends on which side you are on.

In reality, it's in everyone's best interest to move toward legal, social and economic justice in this country. Black folks are tired of seeing their young men without opportunity and gunned down in the streets and white folks are tired of bearing the costs of injustice in the form of riots, widespread contempt for the institutions that are supposed to be the fabric that protects us, surrendering entire communities to violence and outlandish prison and jail costs. But we won't move toward real justice unless we work together. Us against them, the vilification of whole groups of people, doesn't work. Protests and civil disobedience are great. They get people's attention. They get people thinking and talking. Destroying private and public property in anger, while I understand the anger, only deepens the divide that this country desperately needs to try to bridge.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 08:56 PM   #10
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

Quote:
Originally Posted by meyerpl View Post
This is a pretty good conversation, so far. Much better than what mostly consists of hyperbole, finger pointing, and outright idiocy in some other threads.

It's unrealistic to believe that people of color, particularly young black men, do not have radically different experiences with the police than white people have. Young black men and people who love them have learned to be wary and distrustful of the police. If you're black in America you can expect to be treated more aggressively by the police, regardless of any other factors. The treatment black Americans receive in our criminal justice system, from encounters with police to treatment by the courts, is discriminatory and grossly unfair. This is not because the police, prosecutors and judges are, by and large, bad people. The problems are institutional.

It's also unrealistic to believe that the police have not learned to be especially wary and distrustful of young black men. In the U.S. young black men commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than the general population. Black people comprise 13.2 percent of the population, yet commit 49.4% of the murders, 54.9% of the robberies, 34.1% of the aggravated assaults and 38.5% of the overall violent crimes in the U.S. This is not because black people are inherently violent or criminally inclined, the problems are systemic. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...decoverviewpdf

These are both demonstrable facts, but one of them is a truth that most people who have chosen one side or the other in the current debate about race and law enforcement don't want to face. Which truth you don't want to face depends on which side you are on.

In reality, it's in everyone's best interest to move toward legal, social and economic justice in this country. Black folks are tired of seeing their young men without opportunity and gunned down in the streets and white folks are tired of bearing the costs of injustice in the form of riots, widespread contempt for the institutions that are supposed to be the fabric that protects us, surrendering entire communities to violence and outlandish prison and jail costs. But we won't move toward real justice unless we work together. Us against them, the vilification of whole groups of people, doesn't work. Protests and civil disobedience are great. They get people's attention. They get people thinking an talking. Destroying private and public property in anger, while I understand the anger, only deepens the divide that this country desperately needs to try to bridge.
I don't believe there were any riots in Cleveland or any unrest surrounding Tamir Rice's killing.
And a 12 year old is not a young, black man. He was a black boy. Despite the officer saying that he was a "black male, likely age 20".
What is this diatribe about? How does it relate to Tamir's killing?

Middle class White folks should stop this "we're all in the same boat" crap. We're not all in the same boat. Your freedom, your peace, your safety comes at the expense of poor folks in general, but particularly poor and working class black folks in the form of economic dispossession, mass incarceration, and extreme policing. Until you realize that and stop letting guilt reduce your critical thinking to the point of inertia, you're the problem.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 09:23 PM   #11
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by meyerpl View Post
It's also unrealistic to believe that the police have not learned to be especially wary and distrustful of young black men. In the U.S. young black men commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than the general population. Black people comprise 13.2 percent of the population, yet commit 49.4% of the murders, 54.9% of the robberies, 34.1% of the aggravated assaults and 38.5% of the overall violent crimes in the U.S. This is not because black people are inherently violent or criminally inclined, the problems are systemic. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...decoverviewpdf
I don't think that the people who are critical of police actions in these cases would disagree with this. They'd say, "of course the police are wary and distrustful of young black men; that's why they're killing them!"

Cops should only use an amount of force that is reasonably necessary. Whether black men commit a disproportionately high number of crimes, violent or otherwise, is irrelevant. Those numbers tell us nothing about how dangerous an individual black male is going to be. All those statistics do is to provide pseudo-intellectual support for police brutality. The same awful statistical arguments were given in support of the stop and frisk policies, and the arguments are as bad now as they were then.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 09:27 PM   #12
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by Stamp Paid View Post
I don't believe there were any riots in Cleveland or any unrest surrounding Tamir Rice's killing.
And a 12 year old is not a young, black man. He was a black boy. Despite the officer saying that he was a "black male, likely age 20".
What is this diatribe about? How does it relate to Tamir's killing?

Middle class White folks should stop this "we're all in the same boat" crap. We're not all in the same boat. Your freedom, your peace, your safety comes at the expense of poor folks in general, but particularly poor and working class black folks in the form of economic dispossession, mass incarceration, and extreme policing. Until you realize that and stop letting guilt reduce your critical thinking to the point of inertia, you're the problem.
Well, aren't you a sweatheart?

I don't know where some people got the idea that somehow the majority profits from mass incarceration in particular and injustice in general. About 1% profits from economic injustice, and I'm not part of that group. Social injustice bears fruit that is a tremendous economic burden on everyone. In my state, we're spending more on our prison system than we are on our university system. This is not helping us on any level.

My freedom, my peace and my safety are threatened, not enhanced by social and economic injustice. Look at the crime statistics I posted. That's the fruit of injustice. How does that enhance my security, physical or economic, in any way?

And who the fuck said "we're all in the same boat"? Not me. But what I said, and what I believe, is that injustice against any group hurts everyone. And there's ample evidence to support that. Therefore, the nation as a whole would benefit from the acquisition and maintenance of social and economic justice.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 09:33 PM   #13
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
I don't think that the people who are critical of police actions in these cases would disagree with this. They'd say, "of course the police are wary and distrustful of young black men; that's why they're killing them!"

Cops should only use an amount of force that is reasonably necessary. Whether black men commit a disproportionately high number of crimes, violent or otherwise, is irrelevant
. Those numbers tell us nothing about how dangerous an individual black male is going to be. All those statistics do is to provide pseudo-intellectual support for police brutality. The same awful statistical arguments were given in support of the stop and frisk policies, and the arguments are as bad now as they were then.
In theory, this may be true. In reality, while those numbers don't tell us how dangerous an individual black male is going to be, those numbers are reflected in the experiences police have with young black males and the police learn that a young black male is more likely to be armed and/or dangerous. That is most definitely going to be an approach consideration for any police officer who values his life and wants to go home at the end of the day.
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Old Dec 9th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #14
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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In theory, this may be true. In reality, while those numbers don't tell us how dangerous an individual black male is going to be, those numbers are reflected in the experiences police have with young black males and the police learn that a young black male is more likely to be armed and/or dangerous. That is most definitely going to be an approach consideration for any police officer who values his life and wants to go home at the end of the day.
Sure, black males may be more likely to be armed and/or dangerous. But so what? Without numbers establishing that there is a high probability that any particular black male is going to be armed and/or dangerous, the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach can't be justified by statistical argument. Again, I don't think anyone is denying that police officers think that black males are dangerous and that they act in response to that belief. Rather, they're saying that that belief is false or that the response to that danger is excessive.*

*Humans are generally bad at probabilistic/statistical reasoning. There is no indication that police officers are better than others. So the inferences (how dangerous black men are) that police officers make from statistical data in determining an appropriate amount of force might be wrong (or maybe even likely to be wrong). And therefore, they might (or likely) use an inappropriate amount of force.
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Old Dec 10th, 2014, 02:31 AM   #15
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Re: The Killing Of 12-Year Old Tamir Rice By Cleveland Police

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I don't think that the people who are critical of police actions in these cases would disagree with this. They'd say, "of course the police are wary and distrustful of young black men; that's why they're killing them!"

Cops should only use an amount of force that is reasonably necessary. Whether black men commit a disproportionately high number of crimes, violent or otherwise, is irrelevant. Those numbers tell us nothing about how dangerous an individual black male is going to be. All those statistics do is to provide pseudo-intellectual support for police brutality. The same awful statistical arguments were given in support of the stop and frisk policies, and the arguments are as bad now as they were then.
If you look at Meyerpl's chart he didn't mention that the majority of crimes committed are committed by whites but the thug cops don't use innocent white boys as target practice and get away with it. Percentages is used as an excuse in their minds allowing them to make excuses for cops for killing and harassing black folks. Going by that chart more innocent white males than blacks would be murdered by cops without them facing any consequences but it's not even close. They scared, hell they're the ones with the guns murdering innocent people. This is just bullshit.
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