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Old Apr 19th, 2007, 08:11 PM   #1
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Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

First of all, I've been reading this forum. And it is VERY interesting. Can I say thank you to the person who worked out the weeks for doubles number one. I've been wanting to know that for ages!

But what I want to know is if anyone know's of Margaret Court's full title count? I know she had 94 or something in the Open Era, but what about before that, I know she was a real work horse so it must've been lots?

Anyone?

Also does anyone know the Court-King head to head stats, I couldn't find them on WTATour.com anywhere?!?

Thanks in advance
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Old Apr 19th, 2007, 10:21 PM   #2
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Don't know if this thread lists the complete set of Court's titles, but it's a start anyway.

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=285315
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Old Apr 20th, 2007, 12:50 PM   #3
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

That 100 club thread has all of Courts titles (187). As for her head to head win Moffitt King, Court had a 21-13 win loss record.

SMITH COURT vs MOFFITT KING (21-13)

1962
WIMBLEDON
2R
KING
16 63 75

1962
PHILADELPHIA
SF
SMITH COURT
64 62

1962
ORANGE
SF
SMITH COURT
64 64

1963
WIMBLEDON
F
SMITH COURT
63 64

1964
WIMBLEDON
SF
SMITH COURT
63 64

1964
FEDERATION CUP
F
SMITH COURT
62 63

1965
FEDERATION CUP
F
SMITH COURT
64 86

1965
AUSTRALIAN
SF
SMITH COURT
61 86

1965
US OPEN
F
SMITH COURT
86 75

1965
NSW CHAMPS
F
SMITH COURT
64 63

1966
WIMBLEDON
SF
KING
63 63

1966
SOUTH AFRICAN
F
KING
63 62

1968
PERTH
F
KING
62 64

1968
AUSTRALIAN
F
KING
61 62

1969
BRISTOL
F
SMITH COURT
63 63

1969
LAS VEGAS
SF
KING
86 68 64

1969
AUSTRALIAN
F
SMITH COURT
64 61

1970
WIMBLEDON
F
SMITH COURT
14 12 11 9

1970
SOUTH AFRICAN
F
SMITH COURT
64 16 63

1970
PHILADELPHIA
F
SMITH COURT
63 76

1970
DALLAS
F
SMITH COURT
16 63 11 9

1970
SYDNEY
F
KING
62 46 63

1970
DURBAN
F
KING
64 26 62

1971
QUEENS
F
SMITH COURT
63 36 63

1971
HOYLAKE
SF
KING
62 75

1972
US OPEN
SF
KING
64 64

1972
NEWPORT
F
SMITH COURT
64 61

1972
CHARLOTTE
F
KING
62 62

1972
OAKLAND
F
SMITH COURT
64 61

1972
PHOENIX
F
KING
76 63

1973
CHICAGO
F
SMITH COURT
62 46 64

1973
BOSTON
F
SMITH COURT
62 64

1973
NASHVILLE
F
SMITH COURT
63 46 62

1973
INDIANAPOLIS
SF
KING
67 76 63


For the complete Smith Court record go to the following thread.

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=156313
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Old Apr 20th, 2007, 03:22 PM   #4
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Great Stuff AndrewTas ...

Do you have a summary of Margaret's Doubles titles eg. total won in entire career?

I have read somewhere that it is over 150 which must put her right up there as one of the greatest doubles players of all time esp considering all the different partners she had great success with.
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Old Apr 20th, 2007, 07:40 PM   #5
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Thanks for that Andrew, muchly appreaciated.

I don't know about Court's overall doubles title haul but I know that she wasn't quite as consistently dominating in doubles as Navratilova was, in mized doubles though, from what I can tell, she simply won everything!
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Old Apr 21st, 2007, 12:39 AM   #6
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

I have Court winning exactly 150 womens doubles titles, which is short of what Navratilova and Ryan won. In 1965 she won 23 doubles titles, 20 with Lesley Turner.

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Originally Posted by tennisvideos View Post
Great Stuff AndrewTas ...

Do you have a summary of Margaret's Doubles titles eg. total won in entire career?

I have read somewhere that it is over 150 which must put her right up there as one of the greatest doubles players of all time esp considering all the different partners she had great success with.
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Old Apr 21st, 2007, 02:52 AM   #7
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Did ANYone have a h2h record over Marg? Tend to doubt it, but there could have been one or two maybe at the beginning or end of her career, I guess?
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Old Apr 21st, 2007, 03:01 PM   #8
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

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Originally Posted by GeeTee View Post
Did ANYone have a h2h record over Marg? Tend to doubt it, but there could have been one or two maybe at the beginning or end of her career, I guess?
Evert and Navratilova did but I am not sure anyone else did. I think Margaret & Chris were even at 3-3 when Margaret retired in early 74 to have her 2nd child and then she lost her last 3 matches to Evert after making another comeback in 1975 to finish 3-6 overall. I may be wrong with the exact numbers.

In 1973 Court and Evert played some real barnburners including the 1973 French Open Final (Court 67 76 64) which sounds like it was one of the great epics, the 73 Wimbledon Semis (Evert 61 16 61), the USO Semis which Court won in 3 sets and a wonderful World Invitational Tennis Classic at Hilton Head (Court 64 67 62). It's a shame Court retired to have her 2nd child in 74 because I really think these two could have produced a great rivalry in the next few years had Court kept playing full time and without a break. But it was not to be.

As for Navratilova, they had some interesting tussles as well but all of them were after Court had come back from having her 2nd child. So she was definately past her best, and of course Navratilova was FAR from being the great player that she became. Here are the results that I am aware of:

1975 Aust Open QF Navratilova 64 63
1975 Chicago Final Court 63 36 62
1975 Boston SF Navratilova 36 61 64
1975 Wimbledon QF Court 63 64
1975 US Open QF Navratilova 62 64
1976 Colgate QF Navratilova 63 64
1977 LA SF Navratilova 57 64 64

Navratilova led 5-2

(this match in LA against Martina was the 3rd last singles match that Margaret ever played, so she put in a pretty good performance. Ironically for me, her very last appearance resulted in a default to my idol Francoise Durr in the next tournament).
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Old Apr 25th, 2007, 12:04 AM   #9
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Billie Jean King recently had the zest to say "yeah, but Margaret won 10 of the last 17 matches we played"...
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Old Apr 26th, 2007, 02:27 PM   #10
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisvideos View Post
...

1975 Aust Open QF Navratilova 64 63
1975 Chicago Final Court 63 36 62
1975 Boston SF Navratilova 36 61 64
1975 Wimbledon QF Court 63 64
1975 US Open QF Navratilova 62 64
1976 Colgate QF Navratilova 63 64
1977 LA SF Navratilova 57 64 64

Navratilova led 5-2

...
Martina Navratilova has consistently (on the rare occasion when Margaret's name comes up in the commentary booth) had praise for the greatness of Margaret Court, and on one occasion about 10 years ago at Wimbledon, called Madge's the best first serve she'd ever faced, which is really saying something considering all the first serves Marti has gone after during her career. The matches I'd like to see are the two grass court encounters, because they split them, although the 75 USO on har-tru might also be very interesting.
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Old Apr 27th, 2007, 06:00 AM   #11
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

I remember seeing clips of that 75 U.S. Open encounter. Poor Margaret was just very old in that match, and Martina was young and riding a wave that would lead to her defection. You got to hand it to Margaret for making the effort, but she was clearly past her prime by 1975, even though she would still have some decent results.
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Old Apr 28th, 2007, 01:37 AM   #12
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Comeback Queen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jem View Post
Poor Margaret was just very old in that match, and Martina was young and riding a wave that would lead to her defection. You got to hand it to Margaret for making the effort, but she was clearly past her prime by 1975, even though she would still have some decent results.
I know you're not really having a go at Marg, but wanted to agree Marg certainly WAS past her prime......
......a lot like Martina was past her prime in 1990, fourteen years after SHE'D debuted in the world top ten... She had quite a few losses then too!

Mind you, Martina being a rising young star hadn't helped much when she was crushed by the 'very old' Marg in the Wimbledon QF a month or two earlier than the US turnaround. Clearly past her prime was still above the levels of all but the top two or three at the time.

Just forgetting about Margaret's outstanding tournament haul for a minute, a couple of points people raise less often:

Are there any other former #1 players who have comeback from retirement - not once but TWICE - to again reach #1 in the world?? The THIRD time she came back from retirement, she 'only' got to #6... The FOURTH time, the computer had her at #5 when she fell pregnant again and called it quits...

(Answering my own question, Helen Wills-Moody did have absences from the game during her career and became #1 again, but never had to take time out for, or return from, childbirth).

Of course, NO-ONE has ever returned from retirement to win the Grand Slam,as Marg did in 1970, four years after she originally gave up the game.

It's rare enough for players to come back at anywhere near the same level after giving birth, let alone to get 3/4 of a Grand Slam the year following your return. Marg did that in 1973.

So, both as an amateur and as a pro, she returned from significant absences from the game to again become the best in the World.

Imagine what her record would be if she'd been more 'normal' (for a female tennis player) - ie no thoughts of marriage or children whatsoever. I tend to think she would have been #1 from 1970 to at least 1974.

Her pregnancies were, I think, one of the reasons Evonne got such a great jump-start to her career in 1971 and Evert also benefitted. If Marg had played continuously from her 1968 return to the game, she would have dominated from 1969 to 1974, after which the much younger Evert and Goolagong would have begun to turn the tables over both Court and BJK consistently on all surfaces.

This pregnancy factor also applies to Evonne who was getting to her best level in 1976 and then lost nearly two years. Evonne had even more troubles than Marg in getting back to her old level after pregnancy, seemingly becoming more prone to injuries and illness. Though she won another Wimbledon, I don't think she ever really got back to her '76 standard/consistency.

The vast majority of the top women of the Court to Goolagong eras - Bueno, King, Wade, Casals, King, Navratilova - never had babies 'getting in the way' of their careers. Was it Mrs Chambers in the 1920s who was the last mother to win Wimbledon before Evonne in 1980?

But back to Marg, whose career record of seven-times World #1 (end of year) had only ever been exceeded by Helen Wills-Moody's nine times. They were both ranked in this World's Top Ten on thirteen occasions.

From 1961, when she played a full season, Marg was only ranked below #1 on three occasions - at the very start and end, and in the first year of her first comeback.

World Rankings (*=did not play full season):
1961 - 4
1962 - 1
1963 - 1
1964 - 1
1965 - 1 - longest continuous World #1 in over 30 years - since Wills-Moody
1966 - 2* - after announcing retirement and withdrawing from US Champs
1967 -
1968 - 2 - after commencing comeback
1969 - 1
1970 - 1
1971 - 2* - retired after Wimbledon due to pregnancy
1972 - 4* - after late year return after pregnancy
1973 - 1
1974 - missed most of year due to pregnancy
1975 - 6*- equal's Moody's achievement of 13 years ranked in Top Ten
1976 - did not play most of season
1977 - 5* - computer ranking when she retired again due pregnancy

And in her very brief late-76/early-77 comeback, despite being aged 34 and out of the game for over a year, she still managed to beat Kerry Reid, Betty Stove, Sue Barker, Virginia Wade, Virginia Ruzici, Wendy Turnbull, Rosie Casals and Renata Tomanova - all ranked in the World's Top 10 around that time. Not too shabby for an old woman!
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Old Apr 28th, 2007, 02:01 AM   #13
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Re: Comeback Queen

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Originally Posted by GeeTee View Post
I know you're not really having a go at Marg, but wanted to agree Marg certainly WAS past her prime......
......a lot like Martina was past her prime in 1990, fourteen years after SHE'D debuted in the world top ten... She had quite a few losses then too!

Mind you, Martina being a rising young star hadn't helped much when she was crushed by the 'very old' Marg in the Wimbledon QF a month or two earlier than the US turnaround. Clearly past her prime was still above the levels of all but the top two or three at the time.
Indeed, I was not having a go at Margaret. Personally, I have enormous respect for Court and find it a shame that she gets so little respect. I was merely commenting on the U.S. Open QF match. Based on that Wimbledon QF, I think Court was the favorite. But she had a bad day at the office, so to speak, and the younger Navratilova was feeling perky. That said, I do think Court was well past her prime, not that she couldn't still have great results. I thought Chris was well past her prime even in 1986 when she won the French, but she still turned in some great results over the next three years. The problem is that she, like Court and countless others before her, were subject to feeling their years rather than their oats.

Tonight, I can empathize. I qualified for the 4.0 K-swiss playoffs this season in Atlanta. I played great in the first round and won. Today, I played like an old man. My footwork was lousy, my concentration was absent and I just didn't have the willpower to compete the way I like to compete. Needless to say, it wasn't pretty!

But I digress. Having had the opportunity to watch Court in recent matches from the old days, I'm pretty amazed by her game. She was big with a big game. She definitely fits in the conversation of greatest ever in my book, along with Navratilova, Evert and maybe Graf.
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Old Apr 28th, 2007, 02:13 AM   #14
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Re: Comeback Queen

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My footwork was lousy, my concentration was absent and I just didn't have the willpower to compete the way I like to compete.
Sounds like morning sickness to me!
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Old Apr 28th, 2007, 05:15 PM   #15
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Re: Margaret Court's Full Title Haul

Wrong sex! Plus, I have happily been snipped and clipped so as not to worry about that kind of thing anymore!
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